6A6F686E666C756861727479000 wrote: if a floor is established unless there are penalties for not exceeding it at times (say at least two of every five years) the Pirates under Nutting would spend up to the cap and wouldn't go over.
That means they would have one of the lowest payrolls in the game year in and year out.
That wouldn't be any different than current situation.
Suppose a floor pushes over all payroll average from (I’m totally guessing here, but it’s probably in the ball park) $130M to $140M and the floor pushed the Pirates to $115M (the floor I assumed) the Pirates would be within $25M of average instead of $50-60M under.
More importantly, that payroll would allow the Pirates to do more with arb eligible players and the occasional FA.
The team could do many different things if payroll was larger by $55M.
A floor may also cause Nutting to recoup the cost elsewhere, and we'd bet left with a team that spends nothing on scouting, coaching, or signing international players.
Well maybe. But does this possibility mean there is nothing to be gained by trying to make Nutting play by some basic rules?
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
5552444C4255121E67404A464E4B0944484A270 wrote: if a floor is established unless there are penalties for not exceeding it at times (say at least two of every five years) the Pirates under Nutting would spend up to the cap and wouldn't go over.
That means they would have one of the lowest payrolls in the game year in and year out.
That wouldn't be any different than current situation.
Suppose a floor pushes over all payroll average from (I’m totally guessing here, but it’s probably in the ball park) $130M to $140M and the floor pushed the Pirates to $115M (the floor I assumed) the Pirates would be within $25M of average instead of $50-60M under.
More importantly, that payroll would allow the Pirates to do more with arb eligible players and the occasional FA.
The team could do many different things if payroll was larger by $55M.
Many seems to speculate that the Bucs could afford to have $110 to $115 payroll now.
My view is no matter what changes are made the Pirates are going to operate as one of the lowest 5 payroll teams. That means the GM has to be great to operate under those conditions.
That means they would have one of the lowest payrolls in the game year in and year out.
That wouldn't be any different than current situation.
Suppose a floor pushes over all payroll average from (I’m totally guessing here, but it’s probably in the ball park) $130M to $140M and the floor pushed the Pirates to $115M (the floor I assumed) the Pirates would be within $25M of average instead of $50-60M under.
More importantly, that payroll would allow the Pirates to do more with arb eligible players and the occasional FA.
The team could do many different things if payroll was larger by $55M.
Many seems to speculate that the Bucs could afford to have $110 to $115 payroll now.
My view is no matter what changes are made the Pirates are going to operate as one of the lowest 5 payroll teams. That means the GM has to be great to operate under those conditions.
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Bobster21
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
5B7D7C6B7D6D1E0 wrote: if a floor is established unless there are penalties for not exceeding it at times (say at least two of every five years) the Pirates under Nutting would spend up to the cap and wouldn't go over.
That means they would have one of the lowest payrolls in the game year in and year out.
That wouldn't be any different than current situation.
Suppose a floor pushes over all payroll average from (I’m totally guessing here, but it’s probably in the ball park) $130M to $140M and the floor pushed the Pirates to $115M (the floor I assumed) the Pirates would be within $25M of average instead of $50-60M under.
More importantly, that payroll would allow the Pirates to do more with arb eligible players and the occasional FA.
The team could do many different things if payroll was larger by $55M.
Many seems to speculate that the Bucs could afford to have $110 to $115 payroll now.
My view is no matter what changes are made the Pirates are going to operate as one of the lowest 5 payroll teams. That means the GM has to be great to operate under those conditions.
Agreed. Our GM has very little if any margin for error in drafting, trading and evaluating players. Unlike organizations who will go out and pay to obtain a productive player to fill a hole created by a fail in one of those areas, the Pirates are stuck with the bad player or the cheapest alternative. It's great that NH got Reynolds (and the always wild Crick) for Cutch but he whiffed on the Cole and Archer deals. That's not good enough. And how many standout pitchers has he drafted? Maybe NH is an average GM. Maybe. But he's sure not a good enough GM to operate the way a GM has to operate under Nutting.
That means they would have one of the lowest payrolls in the game year in and year out.
That wouldn't be any different than current situation.
Suppose a floor pushes over all payroll average from (I’m totally guessing here, but it’s probably in the ball park) $130M to $140M and the floor pushed the Pirates to $115M (the floor I assumed) the Pirates would be within $25M of average instead of $50-60M under.
More importantly, that payroll would allow the Pirates to do more with arb eligible players and the occasional FA.
The team could do many different things if payroll was larger by $55M.
Many seems to speculate that the Bucs could afford to have $110 to $115 payroll now.
My view is no matter what changes are made the Pirates are going to operate as one of the lowest 5 payroll teams. That means the GM has to be great to operate under those conditions.
Agreed. Our GM has very little if any margin for error in drafting, trading and evaluating players. Unlike organizations who will go out and pay to obtain a productive player to fill a hole created by a fail in one of those areas, the Pirates are stuck with the bad player or the cheapest alternative. It's great that NH got Reynolds (and the always wild Crick) for Cutch but he whiffed on the Cole and Archer deals. That's not good enough. And how many standout pitchers has he drafted? Maybe NH is an average GM. Maybe. But he's sure not a good enough GM to operate the way a GM has to operate under Nutting.
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
The bottom line...as long as Bob Nutting owns the Pirates, nothing will matter. They can institute a cap/floor, but it probably comes with no Super-2 and reaching FA a year earlier. Which in turn means the Pirates will trade players after years 4 and 5 instead of 5 and 6. I'll go out on a limb and say it...as long as Bob Nutting owns this team, 2015 was the last playoff team we'll see. MLB needs to step in and insist Nutting run his team like an MLB franchise, not some half-rate AAA club.
Someone, Jayson Stark maybe, tweeted a few days ago that the Orioles are a disgrace to baseball for tanking this season. He said they didn't deserve to be on the same field as the Yankees. My response? No. What the Pirates are doing, this charade, this facade, this middle finger to the faces of their fans, is a disgrace to the game. It's an insult to the players who take the field every day, the announcers who have to sit through this garbage when the rest of us can turn it off, the vendors who will be out of job, the restaurant and bar owners who see a downturn in business, and most of all, the fans who pay good money to see this laughable excuse for an MLB franchise try to go out and compete. The fans who forked over millions of dollars to build the best ballpark in America. The fans who haven't seen a pennant or World Series since 1979, a division title since 1992, and a playoff game since 2015.
Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington, Clint Hurdle, Chris Archer, Colin Moran, Francisco Cervelli, Elias Diaz, Jameson Taillon's doctor, and Kyle Crick may take the fall for this, but the blame lies at the feet of one man and one man only...Robert Nutting. As long as he is owner, this is what the fans can expect.
Someone, Jayson Stark maybe, tweeted a few days ago that the Orioles are a disgrace to baseball for tanking this season. He said they didn't deserve to be on the same field as the Yankees. My response? No. What the Pirates are doing, this charade, this facade, this middle finger to the faces of their fans, is a disgrace to the game. It's an insult to the players who take the field every day, the announcers who have to sit through this garbage when the rest of us can turn it off, the vendors who will be out of job, the restaurant and bar owners who see a downturn in business, and most of all, the fans who pay good money to see this laughable excuse for an MLB franchise try to go out and compete. The fans who forked over millions of dollars to build the best ballpark in America. The fans who haven't seen a pennant or World Series since 1979, a division title since 1992, and a playoff game since 2015.
Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington, Clint Hurdle, Chris Archer, Colin Moran, Francisco Cervelli, Elias Diaz, Jameson Taillon's doctor, and Kyle Crick may take the fall for this, but the blame lies at the feet of one man and one man only...Robert Nutting. As long as he is owner, this is what the fans can expect.
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rucker59@gmail.com
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
Neal speaks again, in the PG this morning.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
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Bobster21
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
303721292730777B02252F232B2E6C212D2F420 wrote: Neal speaks again, in the PG this morning.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
This is his 12th year as GM. If he hasn't already learned who they are, what they do, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked and how to build upon what’s worked to make it work better, he never will.
The evidence is the 2016 season. Everything was working in 2015. 98 wins! Record attendance! They fell short in the WC game but now they know what works, what hasn't and how to build upon what works to make it better by ......... letting Happ and Blanton walk, trading Walker to add Niese, getting essentially nothing for Morton, addressing the needed upgrade from Alvarez at 1B with Jaso and adding a FA starting pitcher----Vogelsong. Sure, they strengthened the bench with Freese and Joyce but significantly weakened the team otherwise. And now NH still isn't sure what works and how to build on something that does work if he could only figure out what is working. His quotes are just more BS and there is no reason whatsoever to believe he has the ability to make this team better. He has already proven rather definitively that he does NOT know what what works or how to build on it.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
This is his 12th year as GM. If he hasn't already learned who they are, what they do, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked and how to build upon what’s worked to make it work better, he never will.
The evidence is the 2016 season. Everything was working in 2015. 98 wins! Record attendance! They fell short in the WC game but now they know what works, what hasn't and how to build upon what works to make it better by ......... letting Happ and Blanton walk, trading Walker to add Niese, getting essentially nothing for Morton, addressing the needed upgrade from Alvarez at 1B with Jaso and adding a FA starting pitcher----Vogelsong. Sure, they strengthened the bench with Freese and Joyce but significantly weakened the team otherwise. And now NH still isn't sure what works and how to build on something that does work if he could only figure out what is working. His quotes are just more BS and there is no reason whatsoever to believe he has the ability to make this team better. He has already proven rather definitively that he does NOT know what what works or how to build on it.
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
WTF happened to the GM and organization that said to trust the process?
Did NH say the process they've been using isn't the right process?
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rucker59@gmail.com
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
755855444352450506370 wrote: Neal speaks again, in the PG this morning.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
This is his 12th year as GM. If he hasn't already learned who they are, what they do, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked and how to build upon what’s worked to make it work better, he never will.
The evidence is the 2016 season. Everything was working in 2015. 98 wins! Record attendance! They fell short in the WC game but now they know what works, what hasn't and how to build upon what works to make it better by ......... letting Happ and Blanton walk, trading Walker to add Niese, getting essentially nothing for Morton, addressing the needed upgrade from Alvarez at 1B with Jaso and adding a FA starting pitcher----Vogelsong. Sure, they strengthened the bench with Freese and Joyce but significantly weakened the team otherwise. And now NH still isn't sure what works and how to build on something that does work if he could only figure out what is working. His quotes are just more BS and there is no reason whatsoever to believe he has the ability to make this team better. He has already proven rather definitively that he does NOT know what what works or how to build on it.
Of course you’re 100% correct. Neal is using carefully prepared “vision” to bamboozle the fans that we’re actually being led by a team that knows how to recreate its success, and besides we’re that far away anyway....
The is all clearly coordinated with Frank and Scrooge Nutting. The “team” is in place and not going anywhere. Heck, the whole bunch of them might get another contract extension this off season.
“We’re going to go through a thorough assessment of who we are, what we do, why we do it, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, how we build upon what’s worked and how we learn from what hasn’t to make it work better to get this right again,” Huntington said.
Clear as mud to me.
And to all of you counting on a change of leadership, forget it: “We understand the fans’ feelings about this season. We share most of those feelings and are working to get it right again.”
I’m feeling much better.
This is his 12th year as GM. If he hasn't already learned who they are, what they do, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked and how to build upon what’s worked to make it work better, he never will.
The evidence is the 2016 season. Everything was working in 2015. 98 wins! Record attendance! They fell short in the WC game but now they know what works, what hasn't and how to build upon what works to make it better by ......... letting Happ and Blanton walk, trading Walker to add Niese, getting essentially nothing for Morton, addressing the needed upgrade from Alvarez at 1B with Jaso and adding a FA starting pitcher----Vogelsong. Sure, they strengthened the bench with Freese and Joyce but significantly weakened the team otherwise. And now NH still isn't sure what works and how to build on something that does work if he could only figure out what is working. His quotes are just more BS and there is no reason whatsoever to believe he has the ability to make this team better. He has already proven rather definitively that he does NOT know what what works or how to build on it.
Of course you’re 100% correct. Neal is using carefully prepared “vision” to bamboozle the fans that we’re actually being led by a team that knows how to recreate its success, and besides we’re that far away anyway....
The is all clearly coordinated with Frank and Scrooge Nutting. The “team” is in place and not going anywhere. Heck, the whole bunch of them might get another contract extension this off season.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
0A2C2D3A2C3C4F0 wrote:
WTF happened to the GM and organization that said to trust the process?
Did NH say the process they've been using isn't the right process?
Just a tweak or two away from 2012 all over again!
WTF happened to the GM and organization that said to trust the process?
Did NH say the process they've been using isn't the right process?
Just a tweak or two away from 2012 all over again!
NH promises more of the same pitching for 2020
Behind the scenes:
BN: "you said the plan was to build a team to be around .500 perpetually! This isn't .500 Neal! The fans are getting wise!"
NH: "I understand, but nobody can make a consistently .500 team out of a 75 million dollar payroll. We were over .500 last year by a few games. I'm sorry!"
BN: "Get back on the radio and take responsibility for this mess"
NH "OK, listen, you said yourself the fans are getting wise. Lets just tell them that we may not know what we're doing after all. lets play dumb"
BN: "WHAT!!? You cannot say that!"
NH: "Why not sir? trust me. I gave you 5 games with .500 last year. I'll get you there again!"
BN: "you said the plan was to build a team to be around .500 perpetually! This isn't .500 Neal! The fans are getting wise!"
NH: "I understand, but nobody can make a consistently .500 team out of a 75 million dollar payroll. We were over .500 last year by a few games. I'm sorry!"
BN: "Get back on the radio and take responsibility for this mess"
NH "OK, listen, you said yourself the fans are getting wise. Lets just tell them that we may not know what we're doing after all. lets play dumb"
BN: "WHAT!!? You cannot say that!"
NH: "Why not sir? trust me. I gave you 5 games with .500 last year. I'll get you there again!"