1C3A3B2C3A2A590 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
100D292B25400 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
250302150313600 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
Seems like a healthy Chad Kuhl would be a real nice addition to the bullpen. Anyone know when he's eligible to come off of the 60 day DL?
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
14262A2A3E0C2F262B2E2126470 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Good post Sammy. I think you nailed it with the bolded line.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Good post Sammy. I think you nailed it with the bolded line.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
Hopefully they keep Casey Sadler up longer than five minutes this time (and he can do the job).
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Bobster21
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
Seems somewhat curious that Clay Holmes wasn't recalled rather than McRae or Sandler. I wonder if he is the PTBNL.
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Bobster21
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
0F3D31312517343D30353A3D5C0 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Hurdle doesn't deserve a pass for not trying to win a significant game. There are days when you pack it in early and play for tomorrow. Those are games when you fall substantially behind early. Not when it's 4-4 in the 5th inning vs a division rival you need to beat to stay ahead of.
Rodriguez was available and has pitched 3 innings this year as well as well as 6 other times going 2 to 2.2 innings. He was the logical choice as he has generally been an effective pitcher. If he gives up a few runs, then you pack it in and use McRae and Neverauskas and save the rest of the BP for Sunday. If Rodriguez is effective, he can very possible get to or even thru the 7th which leaves only 2 (3 at most) innings to cover. And maybe you use McRae of Neverauskas for 1 or 2 batters where they might have a better chance to succeed in a matchup rather than 5 innings. The team was off Thursday so no one was overworked. But Santana was clearly not available after pitching 1.1, 35 pitches Friday. If Rodriguez keeps them in the game they probably only need less than 3 innings from some combo of Crick (1 IP, 21 pitches Friday), Kela (1, 16 pitches Friday) and Vazquez (1, 15 pitches Friday). That should leave at least 1 of them for Sunday (there's no rule that says relievers can't be used 3 days in a row when they don't throw a lot of pitches) plus Santana plus whoever among Crick, Kela and Vazquez wasn't needed Saturday if that was the case. But Hurdle didn't want to have to work all that out. Much easier to hand the game to St.L and try again tomorrow. Fans hate when players quit on their team. Hurdle quit on his team. He doesn't deserve a pass.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Hurdle doesn't deserve a pass for not trying to win a significant game. There are days when you pack it in early and play for tomorrow. Those are games when you fall substantially behind early. Not when it's 4-4 in the 5th inning vs a division rival you need to beat to stay ahead of.
Rodriguez was available and has pitched 3 innings this year as well as well as 6 other times going 2 to 2.2 innings. He was the logical choice as he has generally been an effective pitcher. If he gives up a few runs, then you pack it in and use McRae and Neverauskas and save the rest of the BP for Sunday. If Rodriguez is effective, he can very possible get to or even thru the 7th which leaves only 2 (3 at most) innings to cover. And maybe you use McRae of Neverauskas for 1 or 2 batters where they might have a better chance to succeed in a matchup rather than 5 innings. The team was off Thursday so no one was overworked. But Santana was clearly not available after pitching 1.1, 35 pitches Friday. If Rodriguez keeps them in the game they probably only need less than 3 innings from some combo of Crick (1 IP, 21 pitches Friday), Kela (1, 16 pitches Friday) and Vazquez (1, 15 pitches Friday). That should leave at least 1 of them for Sunday (there's no rule that says relievers can't be used 3 days in a row when they don't throw a lot of pitches) plus Santana plus whoever among Crick, Kela and Vazquez wasn't needed Saturday if that was the case. But Hurdle didn't want to have to work all that out. Much easier to hand the game to St.L and try again tomorrow. Fans hate when players quit on their team. Hurdle quit on his team. He doesn't deserve a pass.
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
Precisely.
You don’t save a pitcher for tomorrow. Tomorrow, it may rain. Leo Durocher
You don’t save a pitcher for tomorrow. Tomorrow, it may rain. Leo Durocher
Cards@Bucs 8/4 Game Thread...
163B36272031266665540 wrote: Not defending Hurdle, but I think McRae was acting the role of the long reliever. Archer left early the day before. Nova was out early in that game. They needed to use someone to eat up some innings. The problem is they don't have anyone to do that with Brault in Indy and Glasnow traded (not that I disagree with those moves). In 2015, they had Blanton who would come into a game list yesterday and shut they door. They really need that guy now.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Hurdle doesn't deserve a pass for not trying to win a significant game. There are days when you pack it in early and play for tomorrow. Those are games when you fall substantially behind early. Not when it's 4-4 in the 5th inning vs a division rival you need to beat to stay ahead of.
Rodriguez was available and has pitched 3 innings this year as well as well as 6 other times going 2 to 2.2 innings. He was the logical choice as he has generally been an effective pitcher. If he gives up a few runs, then you pack it in and use McRae and Neverauskas and save the rest of the BP for Sunday. If Rodriguez is effective, he can very possible get to or even thru the 7th which leaves only 2 (3 at most) innings to cover. And maybe you use McRae of Neverauskas for 1 or 2 batters where they might have a better chance to succeed in a matchup rather than 5 innings. The team was off Thursday so no one was overworked. But Santana was clearly not available after pitching 1.1, 35 pitches Friday. If Rodriguez keeps them in the game they probably only need less than 3 innings from some combo of Crick (1 IP, 21 pitches Friday), Kela (1, 16 pitches Friday) and Vazquez (1, 15 pitches Friday). That should leave at least 1 of them for Sunday (there's no rule that says relievers can't be used 3 days in a row when they don't throw a lot of pitches) plus Santana plus whoever among Crick, Kela and Vazquez wasn't needed Saturday if that was the case. But Hurdle didn't want to have to work all that out. Much easier to hand the game to St.L and try again tomorrow. Fans hate when players quit on their team. Hurdle quit on his team. He doesn't deserve a pass.
this is what I was trying to say. You did it much better.
this makes sense if you are down a run or more, to me in a tie game you want to do your best to shut down the other team not just have someone who can go more than one inning. You shouldn't put your worst reliever in first in a tie game.
The innings eater doesn't have to come in for the fifth inning.
I have full confidence though that Hurdle would make the same move in a playoff series and no one would say it was a good move in that situation.
Let's all agree Hurdle is a dope and doesn't manage this team well, especially the bullpen.
However, how was he supposed to do things on Saturday? I agree that he shouldn't be worrying about Sunday, however, he was looking down the barrel of covering 5 inning by the bullpen. And his bullpen had just covered 4+ the day before including the usage of each of the 5 good pitchers. Each of those guys are typically one inning guys. Was he supposed to pitch them all again just like on Friday? Then none of them would have been available on Sunday no matter what happened.
Maybe you throw Rodriguez for 2. Santana threw a ton of pitches on Friday, so he is probably out. Then, where do you get the next three innings? Crick, Kela, Vazquez? How do you try and work in McRae and Neverauskas? If it's still a tie in the 7th, then do you pitch McRae or do you mow down all of your late inning guys eliminating all of them from Sunday.
I think it is more a matter of them really missing an effective long reliever. Brault really failed in that regard. Unless they are going to trade for one, Kingham or Holmes has to be here immediately to fill this need. You can't expect to be in an uncompetitive game once out of every three to rest the good bullpen pitchers.
my point is that you don't use McRae until you have to do so. Why they don't want to use Kingham or Holmes in relief is an unknown. Hurdle has to use the players on the roster.
NH and Clint must know that an effective long man is a gap in the roster and they have shuffled McRae, Sadler and Anderson in that spot. Even if the team gets an effective long man the starters need to go deeper.
It just seems to me that when you have a chance to win a game you need to try your best to do so.
In his only other outing McRae was pretty good, to be fair. We need a decent long man like everyone's saying. I think this is an issue with roster makeup, not management.
I just think the "manage every game to win" while sounding great doesn't always work with reality. We would have wrecked our bullpen for at least a day if we just used the same good pitchers over and over. It wasn't just a short outing--it was a short outing for like the third game in a row.
If we were "managing every game to win" why not bring in Taillon there?
Or we could try to get a starting pitcher to get out of the fourth inning. I'm pretty sure this is a bigger reason for last weekend's losing than "Hurdledlol" or whatever.
Hurdle doesn't deserve a pass for not trying to win a significant game. There are days when you pack it in early and play for tomorrow. Those are games when you fall substantially behind early. Not when it's 4-4 in the 5th inning vs a division rival you need to beat to stay ahead of.
Rodriguez was available and has pitched 3 innings this year as well as well as 6 other times going 2 to 2.2 innings. He was the logical choice as he has generally been an effective pitcher. If he gives up a few runs, then you pack it in and use McRae and Neverauskas and save the rest of the BP for Sunday. If Rodriguez is effective, he can very possible get to or even thru the 7th which leaves only 2 (3 at most) innings to cover. And maybe you use McRae of Neverauskas for 1 or 2 batters where they might have a better chance to succeed in a matchup rather than 5 innings. The team was off Thursday so no one was overworked. But Santana was clearly not available after pitching 1.1, 35 pitches Friday. If Rodriguez keeps them in the game they probably only need less than 3 innings from some combo of Crick (1 IP, 21 pitches Friday), Kela (1, 16 pitches Friday) and Vazquez (1, 15 pitches Friday). That should leave at least 1 of them for Sunday (there's no rule that says relievers can't be used 3 days in a row when they don't throw a lot of pitches) plus Santana plus whoever among Crick, Kela and Vazquez wasn't needed Saturday if that was the case. But Hurdle didn't want to have to work all that out. Much easier to hand the game to St.L and try again tomorrow. Fans hate when players quit on their team. Hurdle quit on his team. He doesn't deserve a pass.
this is what I was trying to say. You did it much better.