In another thread, Skinnyhorse called me out for having a loser’s mentality because I back Hurdle. He said the Bucs should be like the Cards who fired Matheny even though he had been successful in 4 of his seven seasons. The Bucs need to start expecting to win like the Cards. I agree about trying to emulate the Cardinals as they are a well run competitive organization. So let’s do a little comparison.
First let’s tackle Market size. Here are the Market sizes for the NL Central:
Chicago-3rd
St Louis- 21st
Pittsburgh-24th
Milwaukee-35th
Cincinnati-36th
From a Market size perspective The Cards and Bucs are extremely close. You cannot blame the size of the markets for the disparity.
Let’s look at attendance:
Cards are averaging 43,000 per game
The Pirates are just short of 20,000 per game.
That’s a 1.8M difference. Of course the Cards are a first place team and the Bucs are a last place team. You could make a case for when the Bucs are competitive they average 30K.
Even so; the Cards would have a guesstimate of 25-35M more revenue from Attendance.
Finally ....payroll.
Cardinals-$150M which is close to the ML average.
Pirates-$65M
$85 million below the Cardinals!!!
The Cardinals reinvest in their team. They go out and get a Goldschmidt. Unless you catch lightening in a bottle and hit on all your draft picks and make successful International signings, and develop the talent you cannot make up that difference in investment.
Yes the Pirates could emulate the Cardinals. I’m sure with a legitimate playoff team the Bucs could probably average 35K.
But the owner will not reinvest in the product.
You can fire the whole coaching staff and FO personnel. It won’t matter unless the owner reinvests in the product at the ML level.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
But isn't it 2 different issues? Of course the Pirates will never win anything as long as Nutting is pinching pennies. But does that mean Hurdle, the coaches and FO personnel should keep their jobs as long as Nutting owns the team regardless of how they perform their duties? Replacing one or all won't bring a championship because of Nutting's financial constraints but fans could at least enjoy a few more wins with better personnel decisions from the GM and/or better game management from the manager instead of this pathetic excuse for a team we currently see.
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rucker59@gmail.com
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
I gotta agree with JollyRoger: I don’t particularly like Hurdle as I find him arrogant and condescending when there is any adversity. I don’t like all of his baseball decisions. In fact some of them really tick me off. I believe Hurdle has lost the team several important games. So I’m no Hurdle defender.
But I think it VERY unlikely another manager will do better with the VERY limited resources Hurdle has managed. I think it much more likely the next manager gets crushed.
I really don’t agree with making someone a scapegoat.
But I think it VERY unlikely another manager will do better with the VERY limited resources Hurdle has managed. I think it much more likely the next manager gets crushed.
I really don’t agree with making someone a scapegoat.
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Bobster21
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
2F283E36382F68641D3A303C3431733E32305D0 wrote: I gotta agree with JollyRoger: I don’t particularly like Hurdle as I find him arrogant and condescending when there is any adversity. I don’t like all of his baseball decisions. In fact some of them really tick me off. I believe Hurdle has lost the team several important games. So I’m no Hurdle defender.
But I think it VERY unlikely another manager will do better with the VERY limited resources Hurdle has managed. I think it much more likely the next manager gets crushed.
I really don’t agree with making someone a scapegoat.
I don't see how much more the current manager could get crushed. They rarely ever win anymore. I believe you have to fix what you can fix. We're stuck with Nutting. But NH and CH could be replaced. Not as scapegoats but because they are simply not good enough at what they have to do. NH is poor at drafting, evaluation and development. CH never seems to prioritize winning the game he's playing, always looking out for the next game. Always oversees a team with poor fundamentals. Sticks to hackneyed formulas that only work for teams that have the personnel to make them work. Making those changes won't make the Pirates a contender as long as the roster has to be full of low salaried players. But it would at least make them more competitive than they currently are.
But I think it VERY unlikely another manager will do better with the VERY limited resources Hurdle has managed. I think it much more likely the next manager gets crushed.
I really don’t agree with making someone a scapegoat.
I don't see how much more the current manager could get crushed. They rarely ever win anymore. I believe you have to fix what you can fix. We're stuck with Nutting. But NH and CH could be replaced. Not as scapegoats but because they are simply not good enough at what they have to do. NH is poor at drafting, evaluation and development. CH never seems to prioritize winning the game he's playing, always looking out for the next game. Always oversees a team with poor fundamentals. Sticks to hackneyed formulas that only work for teams that have the personnel to make them work. Making those changes won't make the Pirates a contender as long as the roster has to be full of low salaried players. But it would at least make them more competitive than they currently are.
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SteadyFreddy
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
It’s just a disgrace that nobody has lost their job after this 7-28 stretch which is almost a 1/4 of the season. You don’t see Bob Nutting anywhere either not a peep out of him during this death spiral. It’s been a long long time since I’ve been this embarrassed as a Pirates fan.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
0B2C3D393C211E2A3D3C3C21580 wrote: It’s just a disgrace that nobody has lost their job after this 7-28 stretch which is almost a 1/4 of the season. You don’t see Bob Nutting anywhere either not a peep out of him during this death spiral. It’s been a long long time since I’ve been this embarrassed as a Pirates fan.
Frighteningly, I agree with Freddy. It is mind blowing to me that Hurdle hasn't been fired. This team isn't a playoff team. However, they aren't that bad where they should have gone 7-28 for any stretch of the season. A good manager doesn't allow stretches like this.
Frighteningly, I agree with Freddy. It is mind blowing to me that Hurdle hasn't been fired. This team isn't a playoff team. However, they aren't that bad where they should have gone 7-28 for any stretch of the season. A good manager doesn't allow stretches like this.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
504D696B65000 wrote: It’s just a disgrace that nobody has lost their job after this 7-28 stretch which is almost a 1/4 of the season. You don’t see Bob Nutting anywhere either not a peep out of him during this death spiral. It’s been a long long time since I’ve been this embarrassed as a Pirates fan.
Frighteningly, I agree with Freddy. It is mind blowing to me that Hurdle hasn't been fired. This team isn't a playoff team. However, they aren't that bad where they should have gone 7-28 for any stretch of the season. A good manager doesn't allow stretches like this.
I too think Hurlde has to go. I disagree that the team isn't this bad. The talent level is severely lacking. After Marte, Bell, Reynolds and possibly Newman there isn't much there. The pitching staff is just awful.
Frighteningly, I agree with Freddy. It is mind blowing to me that Hurdle hasn't been fired. This team isn't a playoff team. However, they aren't that bad where they should have gone 7-28 for any stretch of the season. A good manager doesn't allow stretches like this.
I too think Hurlde has to go. I disagree that the team isn't this bad. The talent level is severely lacking. After Marte, Bell, Reynolds and possibly Newman there isn't much there. The pitching staff is just awful.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
Blame is a tricky thing. Although, I think we all generally agree that the majority of the blame goes to Nutting. I feel for Huntington because, in reality, he doesn't just have one hand tied behind his back, he has both hands tied. That, in turn impacts Hurdle's ability to get the team to win. I have generally been somewhat supportive of NH and Hurdle because of how little the Pirates are spending but I think that time is past.
In National Treasure there is a line to the effect: "Somebody has to go to prison..." Somebody has to pay and since that isn't going to be Nutting, they need to look elsewhere. I think Hurdle was the right guy to bring a better attitude but right now he looks lost. NH has not done a good job drafting or evaluating talent in trades. For the sake of fans, if Nutting isn't going to spend money on players he might as well scapegoat NH and Hurdle. The fans need something, even if it is mostly symbolic.
In defense of Hurdle and NH, if the Pirates would have been willing to spend up to $120m in payroll, to add pitching this team could be in it. However, I am beginning to wonder if NH is the guy to find the Yelich type player and acquire him if we would take that route. I am also beginning to wonder if a new manager would breath a little life into the players. I would think after awhile players would get tired of listening to the tripe of any manage and I think that may be truer of Hurdle than with most.
I want the Pirates to make a bold move this offseason to spend some money that will possibly result in trading some players. I don't think that will happen because of ownership but I also don't think I have confidence that NH or Hurdle would be able to go and run with it. I am really starting to lose interest in the Pirates and I hate that.
In National Treasure there is a line to the effect: "Somebody has to go to prison..." Somebody has to pay and since that isn't going to be Nutting, they need to look elsewhere. I think Hurdle was the right guy to bring a better attitude but right now he looks lost. NH has not done a good job drafting or evaluating talent in trades. For the sake of fans, if Nutting isn't going to spend money on players he might as well scapegoat NH and Hurdle. The fans need something, even if it is mostly symbolic.
In defense of Hurdle and NH, if the Pirates would have been willing to spend up to $120m in payroll, to add pitching this team could be in it. However, I am beginning to wonder if NH is the guy to find the Yelich type player and acquire him if we would take that route. I am also beginning to wonder if a new manager would breath a little life into the players. I would think after awhile players would get tired of listening to the tripe of any manage and I think that may be truer of Hurdle than with most.
I want the Pirates to make a bold move this offseason to spend some money that will possibly result in trading some players. I don't think that will happen because of ownership but I also don't think I have confidence that NH or Hurdle would be able to go and run with it. I am really starting to lose interest in the Pirates and I hate that.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
2C24273026262A450 wrote: Blame is a tricky thing. Although, I think we all generally agree that the majority of the blame goes to Nutting. I feel for Huntington because, in reality, he doesn't just have one hand tied behind his back, he has both hands tied. That, in turn impacts Hurdle's ability to get the team to win. I have generally been somewhat supportive of NH and Hurdle because of how little the Pirates are spending but I think that time is past.
In National Treasure there is a line to the effect: "Somebody has to go to prison..." Somebody has to pay and since that isn't going to be Nutting, they need to look elsewhere. I think Hurdle was the right guy to bring a better attitude but right now he looks lost. NH has not done a good job drafting or evaluating talent in trades. For the sake of fans, if Nutting isn't going to spend money on players he might as well scapegoat NH and Hurdle. The fans need something, even if it is mostly symbolic.
In defense of Hurdle and NH, if the Pirates would have been willing to spend up to $120m in payroll, to add pitching this team could be in it. However, I am beginning to wonder if NH is the guy to find the Yelich type player and acquire him if we would take that route. I am also beginning to wonder if a new manager would breath a little life into the players. I would think after awhile players would get tired of listening to the tripe of any manage and I think that may be truer of Hurdle than with most.
I want the Pirates to make a bold move this offseason to spend some money that will possibly result in trading some players. I don't think that will happen because of ownership but I also don't think I have confidence that NH or Hurdle would be able to go and run with it. I am really starting to lose interest in the Pirates and I hate that.
at this stage (actually for the past couple of years) I have no sympathy for NH. He knows the situation, instead of leaving for a better situation (if he is a well respected baseball man he would have no problem getting another gm post) he has chosen to stay and become a shill for the team. He is well paid to do this.
It is amazing that he got the team in the playoffs three straight years, had seen attendance rise, and then has had to lose resources.
Maybe he is hoping for a miracle where he can ride off into the sunset as a hero but the chances of that happening are slim.
So instead he stays, gets paid, shuffles around some players and knows he has no chance. Not to get political, but NH seems like he could be a good spokesperson for any politician in the country.
In National Treasure there is a line to the effect: "Somebody has to go to prison..." Somebody has to pay and since that isn't going to be Nutting, they need to look elsewhere. I think Hurdle was the right guy to bring a better attitude but right now he looks lost. NH has not done a good job drafting or evaluating talent in trades. For the sake of fans, if Nutting isn't going to spend money on players he might as well scapegoat NH and Hurdle. The fans need something, even if it is mostly symbolic.
In defense of Hurdle and NH, if the Pirates would have been willing to spend up to $120m in payroll, to add pitching this team could be in it. However, I am beginning to wonder if NH is the guy to find the Yelich type player and acquire him if we would take that route. I am also beginning to wonder if a new manager would breath a little life into the players. I would think after awhile players would get tired of listening to the tripe of any manage and I think that may be truer of Hurdle than with most.
I want the Pirates to make a bold move this offseason to spend some money that will possibly result in trading some players. I don't think that will happen because of ownership but I also don't think I have confidence that NH or Hurdle would be able to go and run with it. I am really starting to lose interest in the Pirates and I hate that.
at this stage (actually for the past couple of years) I have no sympathy for NH. He knows the situation, instead of leaving for a better situation (if he is a well respected baseball man he would have no problem getting another gm post) he has chosen to stay and become a shill for the team. He is well paid to do this.
It is amazing that he got the team in the playoffs three straight years, had seen attendance rise, and then has had to lose resources.
Maybe he is hoping for a miracle where he can ride off into the sunset as a hero but the chances of that happening are slim.
So instead he stays, gets paid, shuffles around some players and knows he has no chance. Not to get political, but NH seems like he could be a good spokesperson for any politician in the country.
St. Louis vs Pittsburgh
So, was NH getting other offers and turned them down because he thought the Pirates had a legitimate window or did he not get offers and is simply doing his job and collecting his paycheck? I suppose he could have believed that Nutting would open his wallet more but right now that would make him pretty gullible.