302B26272E222D430 wrote: The current projection is 2025 for when we will be competitive. Do you want to raise it to 2030?
What's the (realistic) plan to make this team competitive this year? Next year? There are a lot of people complaining about trading off Bell (and others) and trying to load up a system to make a run in 2-4 years. If you don't like that plan, fine. What is the alternative? What should they do now? Be specific. Enough of this "make one or two positions better each year" ambiguity. In the world of puppy dogs and rainbows you think that a team magically make 2 positions better each year and then you have a World Series team in 4 years? What positions and how would you improve it...
edit: I wasn't writing that directly to you Shedman. I just happened to quote your line.
Josh Bell to Nats
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GreenWeenie
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Josh Bell to Nats
I would say that it's better to use "more competitive," as in more competitive than this past season, which shouldn't be terribly difficult to do for a guy like Cherington; something some of us have been saying for a while.
Let's start with the Bell trade, since you're asking about that. Why the rush to make that deal when it was made? Smells like a pure dump to get the guy off the books as quickly as possible. As a result, the maximum return is a guy with a double-digit ERA. Not exacly a confidence-maker. I would wonder that, if by waiting longer, that teams looking to fill out rosters might be willing to offer more than that for him. Some here (not me) thought that he'd be more enticing to an AL team, for example. I don't think that it's unreasonable to question this trade. Plenty of people who follow baseball for a living have.
The Pirates have struggled with two issues in recent years- incompetence and on-going cheapness. I don't think we're likely to return toward competitiveness until competitors begin to decline or until those two issues have changed.
Add- If you scroll down, there's a thread- What Moves Do The Pirates Need To Make? Some ideas are maybe too far fetched because of "cheapness and incompetence," but there are ideas.
Let's start with the Bell trade, since you're asking about that. Why the rush to make that deal when it was made? Smells like a pure dump to get the guy off the books as quickly as possible. As a result, the maximum return is a guy with a double-digit ERA. Not exacly a confidence-maker. I would wonder that, if by waiting longer, that teams looking to fill out rosters might be willing to offer more than that for him. Some here (not me) thought that he'd be more enticing to an AL team, for example. I don't think that it's unreasonable to question this trade. Plenty of people who follow baseball for a living have.
The Pirates have struggled with two issues in recent years- incompetence and on-going cheapness. I don't think we're likely to return toward competitiveness until competitors begin to decline or until those two issues have changed.
Add- If you scroll down, there's a thread- What Moves Do The Pirates Need To Make? Some ideas are maybe too far fetched because of "cheapness and incompetence," but there are ideas.
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DemDog
Josh Bell to Nats
7D604446482D0 wrote: So now, what is the real time clock Nutting/Cherrington figure on being competitive enough to add some decent pieces instead of Dyson types? Say we deal off Musgrove and Frazier at the beginning of the season. I can see Moran, Kuhl, Brault types moving next even though all three of those don't make money at all that matters. They can't trade Stallings can they, since he might have the best value on our roster if Musgrove and Frazier are gone.
I can't fathom this organization competing in 2023 at all based on the level of talent we are brining in. We might get our dominant starter in the upcoming draft and he could be up in maybe two years. I'm not seeing anything until 2025 and that is if everything goes right. Our stud prospects, absent Hayes, are in lower levels and have two or three years before being up.
I'm already planning to have the first overall pick in 2022 draft too.
Some are suggesting that pick in 2022 is going to be a doozy. [highlight]The son of former Steelers' TE Eric Green seems to be the front runner.[/highlight] He looks impressive as a 16 year old.
The reality is this team is not going to compete this year. They weren't going to compete with Bell. They weren't going to compete with a couple of FA signings that improved one or two positions. They weren't going to get a WC spot. And if you aren't going to get a WC spot, it is working against your own self interested to be close. If you aren't making the playoffs, the most franchise rewarding thing to do is be in last place and earn the first pick. At this point, the first pick gets you a stud OF'er.
It mystifies me that people think the Pirates are going to go out and sign a couple of FA to make a couple of positions better on a team like this. It doesn't just waste money (which I don't care about). It wastes their chance to actually build a franchise.
Looking ahead at Elijah Green
I can't fathom this organization competing in 2023 at all based on the level of talent we are brining in. We might get our dominant starter in the upcoming draft and he could be up in maybe two years. I'm not seeing anything until 2025 and that is if everything goes right. Our stud prospects, absent Hayes, are in lower levels and have two or three years before being up.
I'm already planning to have the first overall pick in 2022 draft too.
Some are suggesting that pick in 2022 is going to be a doozy. [highlight]The son of former Steelers' TE Eric Green seems to be the front runner.[/highlight] He looks impressive as a 16 year old.
The reality is this team is not going to compete this year. They weren't going to compete with Bell. They weren't going to compete with a couple of FA signings that improved one or two positions. They weren't going to get a WC spot. And if you aren't going to get a WC spot, it is working against your own self interested to be close. If you aren't making the playoffs, the most franchise rewarding thing to do is be in last place and earn the first pick. At this point, the first pick gets you a stud OF'er.
It mystifies me that people think the Pirates are going to go out and sign a couple of FA to make a couple of positions better on a team like this. It doesn't just waste money (which I don't care about). It wastes their chance to actually build a franchise.
Looking ahead at Elijah Green
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GreenWeenie
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Josh Bell to Nats
We don't want to win soon because we'd rather wait to win. @@@
Josh Bell to Nats
4075626269506262696E62070 wrote: We don't want to win soon because we'd rather wait to win. @@@
I argued this above, but there is no reason to be incrementally better. The system actually penalizes it. The worst team doesn't make the playoffs but gets the huge reward of the best pick. The first team out of the playoffs gets a much worse pick and still misses the playoffs. I'd rather tank and get the best pick. Being the 20th best team does nothing for me. Playoffs or worst team. It makes no sense to muddle around in the middle.
I argued this above, but there is no reason to be incrementally better. The system actually penalizes it. The worst team doesn't make the playoffs but gets the huge reward of the best pick. The first team out of the playoffs gets a much worse pick and still misses the playoffs. I'd rather tank and get the best pick. Being the 20th best team does nothing for me. Playoffs or worst team. It makes no sense to muddle around in the middle.
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GreenWeenie
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Josh Bell to Nats
You'll have no problem getting people to agree to tanking. I will never be among them. It goes contrary to everything I believe in.
It's one thing to lose, but we should always at least put forth the effort to win. I'm certain the players are, unless I had concerns about "fixing."
Management? I wouldn't put it past them, but I have no reason to think that they would. Cherington has a good professional reputation, and that would damage it.
It's one thing to lose, but we should always at least put forth the effort to win. I'm certain the players are, unless I had concerns about "fixing."
Management? I wouldn't put it past them, but I have no reason to think that they would. Cherington has a good professional reputation, and that would damage it.
Josh Bell to Nats
093C2B2B20192B2B20272B4E0 wrote: You'll have no problem getting people to agree to tanking. I will never be among them. It goes contrary to everything I believe in.
It's one thing to lose, but we should always at least put forth the effort to win. I'm certain the players are, unless I had concerns about "fixing."
Management? I wouldn't put it past them, but I have no reason to think that they would. Cherington has a good professional reputation, and that would damage it.
That's actually a pretty good post. The bolded sentence is a much more complicated statement than it seems. Playing to win (yearly) implies that the rules are fair the balanced. In baseball, things are not fair and balanced.
It's one thing to lose, but we should always at least put forth the effort to win. I'm certain the players are, unless I had concerns about "fixing."
Management? I wouldn't put it past them, but I have no reason to think that they would. Cherington has a good professional reputation, and that would damage it.
That's actually a pretty good post. The bolded sentence is a much more complicated statement than it seems. Playing to win (yearly) implies that the rules are fair the balanced. In baseball, things are not fair and balanced.
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GreenWeenie
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Josh Bell to Nats
It's impossible to measure. The players- unless they have bad attitudes- go out to win. It's in an athlete's nature to "win" or die trying. They're rewarded for doing well, and penalized if they go out and stink.
Management? Not always. We know of cases- I think the Penguins' management did everything possible to put a terrible team on the ice so that they could draft a certain guy from Quebec back in the day.
I assume that no one here has enough informatiion to make diffinitive conclusions about whether the team's capable of paying for more talent. We can go only by what we see, read, and hear.
Management? Not always. We know of cases- I think the Penguins' management did everything possible to put a terrible team on the ice so that they could draft a certain guy from Quebec back in the day.
I assume that no one here has enough informatiion to make diffinitive conclusions about whether the team's capable of paying for more talent. We can go only by what we see, read, and hear.