372C212029252A440 wrote: Using the car analogy, if you ha e a chevy and you want a BMW and your chevy is broke down and won't run, you should fix your car up so at least it is running and then figure out how to get the money for a BMW. Instead what Cherington did with Bell was take the front wheel off the broken car and trade it to someone for a couple of hubcaps.
I must say that after spending the day picking up wrapping paper and overeating it was relaxing and entertaining reading this thread. Please keep me entertained. Merry Christmas everyone
Josh Bell to Nats
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
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Josh Bell to Nats
4E555859505C533D0 wrote: Using the car analogy, if you ha e a chevy and you want a BMW and your chevy is broke down and won't run, you should fix your car up so at least it is running and then figure out how to get the money for a BMW. Instead what Cherington did with Bell was take the front wheel off the broken car and trade it to someone for a couple of hubcaps.
Shed, Shed, Shed.
Those hubcaps will look pretty good up there in Altoona.
Shed, Shed, Shed.
Those hubcaps will look pretty good up there in Altoona.
Josh Bell to Nats
735E53424554430300310 wrote: We want the team to win in 2021. It surprises me that others feel perfectly fine with punting seasons away.
I don't buy into this slow motion nonsense.
My impression is that this is where our major differences are.
Is that what you call having a realistic understanding of the situation? We've all expressed our unhappiness at one time or another with how Nutting operates. We're certainly not perfectly fine with it. We understand that they won't spend for impact FAs. We're not perfectly fine with it but that's the situation. We understand that they aren't going to spend to acquire impact players in trades and don't have the talent to trade to acquire such players even if they were willing to increase payroll to accommodate them. We're not perfectly fine with it but that's the situation. We understand that the ONLY way the Pirates will become competitive is to improve the talent level thru the draft or trading for prospects with the idea that-unlike the previous regime-those players will develop into productive major leaguers. "Punting seasons away" implies that there was another realistic option. Other than a magic wand, what is that other option that we are perfectly fine ignoring?
The problem is that all those acquired and drafted prospects need to develop into a quality team at the same time, before they reach free agency. What your post says is that the Pirates are unwilling to pay market rate for performance. Once this organization has to pay a player what he is worth, he's traded. Bell wasn't fantastic, but let's be honest, he wasn't traded because the hungry young prospect coming up needs playing time, and Bell became superfluous. We traded a starting position player for prospects. This organization is not built for the future, it is built for right now, because any successful player will be gone next year, or the year after.
I understand that the organization needs to become more talented, and this trade might have brought in more talent than it sent out, but should we be more excited if Taillon performs well so that he can anchor our rotation for the next 6 years, or so we can trade him for more/better prospects? And which option is based in reality and which reflects unrealistic expectations?
I don't buy into this slow motion nonsense.
My impression is that this is where our major differences are.
Is that what you call having a realistic understanding of the situation? We've all expressed our unhappiness at one time or another with how Nutting operates. We're certainly not perfectly fine with it. We understand that they won't spend for impact FAs. We're not perfectly fine with it but that's the situation. We understand that they aren't going to spend to acquire impact players in trades and don't have the talent to trade to acquire such players even if they were willing to increase payroll to accommodate them. We're not perfectly fine with it but that's the situation. We understand that the ONLY way the Pirates will become competitive is to improve the talent level thru the draft or trading for prospects with the idea that-unlike the previous regime-those players will develop into productive major leaguers. "Punting seasons away" implies that there was another realistic option. Other than a magic wand, what is that other option that we are perfectly fine ignoring?
The problem is that all those acquired and drafted prospects need to develop into a quality team at the same time, before they reach free agency. What your post says is that the Pirates are unwilling to pay market rate for performance. Once this organization has to pay a player what he is worth, he's traded. Bell wasn't fantastic, but let's be honest, he wasn't traded because the hungry young prospect coming up needs playing time, and Bell became superfluous. We traded a starting position player for prospects. This organization is not built for the future, it is built for right now, because any successful player will be gone next year, or the year after.
I understand that the organization needs to become more talented, and this trade might have brought in more talent than it sent out, but should we be more excited if Taillon performs well so that he can anchor our rotation for the next 6 years, or so we can trade him for more/better prospects? And which option is based in reality and which reflects unrealistic expectations?
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Josh Bell to Nats
4F545958515D523C0 wrote: Using the car analogy, if you ha e a chevy and you want a BMW and your chevy is broke down and won't run, you should fix your car up so at least it is running and then figure out how to get the money for a BMW. Instead what Cherington did with Bell was take the front wheel off the broken car and trade it to someone for a couple of hubcaps.
1. How does one fix a broken down Chevy if one has no money?
2. If the Chevy is broken, the front wheel isn't worth much.
3. If the front wheel isn't worth much, how would one expect to get back more than a couple of hub caps?
1. How does one fix a broken down Chevy if one has no money?
2. If the Chevy is broken, the front wheel isn't worth much.
3. If the front wheel isn't worth much, how would one expect to get back more than a couple of hub caps?
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Josh Bell to Nats
1. This is the United States of America, land of the free. Home of the brave. When you have no money and need a new car, you do what the rest of the world does. You go in, buy the car, borrow the money, and you're on your way.
2. If the Chevy's broken, the front wheel is worth plenty. Add a new engine, put on some new wiper blades- whatever- and you're on your way.
3. The front wheel's worth a lot. The couple of hubcaps? Nobody needs them. Get back in your car, and you're on your way!
2. If the Chevy's broken, the front wheel is worth plenty. Add a new engine, put on some new wiper blades- whatever- and you're on your way.
3. The front wheel's worth a lot. The couple of hubcaps? Nobody needs them. Get back in your car, and you're on your way!
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johnfluharty
Josh Bell to Nats
Other may disagree with my definition, but to me a salary dump move is one in which the primary purpose is to reduce payroll. I don't think that is the case here. I think they really are trying to add talent. But, moving Bell for one lower-level higher-upside guy and one higher-level lower-upside guy instead of getting two lower-level higher-upside guys means that we can expect at least one of our major league pitchers to be gone before spring training, likely for one or two more lower-level guys with higher potential. With Bell moved, I think we can expect anyone with 2 or less years left that has any trade value at all to be moved. So yes, they are in fact punting the 2021 season. By doing so they can grab another high draft pick. This method is not that different that what Tampa does - they just seem to be better at it, and they tend to have more guys with good value at the major level that we do.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Josh Bell to Nats
262324222A2039242D3E38354C0 wrote: Other may disagree with my definition, but to me a salary dump move is one in which the primary purpose is to reduce payroll. I don't think that is the case here. I think they really are trying to add talent. But, moving Bell for one lower-level higher-upside guy and one higher-level lower-upside guy instead of getting two lower-level higher-upside guys means that we can expect at least one of our major league pitchers to be gone before spring training, likely for one or two more lower-level guys with higher potential. With Bell moved, I think we can expect anyone with 2 or less years left that has any trade value at all to be moved. So yes, they are in fact punting the 2021 season. By doing so they can grab another high draft pick. This method is not that different that what Tampa does - they just seem to be better at it, and they tend to have more guys with good value at the major level that we do.
You and I have differences in definition.
In mine, the motive isn't relevant. Don't care what the motives are. There isn't a GM in the world who would admit that they made a move to cut costs. They're always "baseball moves" so as not to upset the ticket-buying public. By that, I mean, very few times.
In the definition that I've used here and on past boards, we've defined Salary Dumps as a move made that results in significant current payroll reduction- especially when the return does little or nothing to improve the current roster- except when the savings results in another move that will improve the roster.
You and I have differences in definition.
In mine, the motive isn't relevant. Don't care what the motives are. There isn't a GM in the world who would admit that they made a move to cut costs. They're always "baseball moves" so as not to upset the ticket-buying public. By that, I mean, very few times.
In the definition that I've used here and on past boards, we've defined Salary Dumps as a move made that results in significant current payroll reduction- especially when the return does little or nothing to improve the current roster- except when the savings results in another move that will improve the roster.
Josh Bell to Nats
While I support the trade of Bell, the value the Pirates received for Bell underscores how badly NH did in trading for Archer.
I am rooting for Bell to figure it out in Washington, but I am rooting more strongly for Crowe to pitch some decent innings and for Yean to demonstrate that he can be a good Major League pitcher.
I am rooting for Bell to figure it out in Washington, but I am rooting more strongly for Crowe to pitch some decent innings and for Yean to demonstrate that he can be a good Major League pitcher.
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iwatch
Josh Bell to Nats
You’ve all forgotten one part of the car analogy: if you own a broken down Chevy and you want to WIN the Indy 500, you don’t even try to fix the Chevy as it can’t win the race. Sell it for scrap metal and parts all while building an Indy car. You may never get the best Indy car in the race but you might catch lightning in a bottle and win. But you won’t win with the Chevy even if you add a front air foil, turbo charger, and new transmission. That Chevy is ill-fit to compete.
I want to see an Indy car in Pitt someday. I’m not interested in souping up a ‘57 Chevy so it can win a few dirt track races when winning the Indy 500 is the goal.
I’ll now brace myself for the inevitable “punt-kick can-apologist” onslaught from the usuals.
I want to see an Indy car in Pitt someday. I’m not interested in souping up a ‘57 Chevy so it can win a few dirt track races when winning the Indy 500 is the goal.
I’ll now brace myself for the inevitable “punt-kick can-apologist” onslaught from the usuals.
Josh Bell to Nats
6F5A4D4D467F4D4D46414D280 wrote: Shed can respond for himself. I'm only clarifying a point:
I dont recall anyone saying that The Bell Dump's only purpose was to shed salary.
I think that we all know that the motive was to punt away the 2021 season. In so doing, the team cut payroll.
That could change. It's possible that the next moves are made to help in 2021.
Let me ask you this. The Pirates looked to have two candidates on the team to be the starting first baseman. One was Josh Bell. The other is Colin Moran. On an everyday basis, who do you want to start? Before you even say "switch hitter" Bell hitting from the right side equated to an okay hitting pitcher, which we already know your opinion on, and certainly having him hit in the middle of the lineup was a travesty.
Go.
I dont recall anyone saying that The Bell Dump's only purpose was to shed salary.
I think that we all know that the motive was to punt away the 2021 season. In so doing, the team cut payroll.
That could change. It's possible that the next moves are made to help in 2021.
Let me ask you this. The Pirates looked to have two candidates on the team to be the starting first baseman. One was Josh Bell. The other is Colin Moran. On an everyday basis, who do you want to start? Before you even say "switch hitter" Bell hitting from the right side equated to an okay hitting pitcher, which we already know your opinion on, and certainly having him hit in the middle of the lineup was a travesty.
Go.