Frazier clears the deck- 2 run HR.
7-2
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
Jeepers guys....infield pop drops between 4 guys but get the force at 2nd and then
Raise The Jolly Roger!!!!!
Raise The Jolly Roger!!!!!
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
I think it's noteworthy that when Brubaker and Keller both spent 2018 between AA and AAA it was Brubaker who had the better combined stats and was named the organization's minor league pitcher of the year. But we kept hearing about Keller and how he was the team's ace-in-waiting.
Brubaker began the 2019 very strong for Indy by suffered a right forearm strain and ended up pitching just 28 innings that year. Meanwhile Keller started the 2019 season with a fairly ordinary 3.45 ERA at Indy before making an unimpressive MLB debut in May, then going back to Indy for 2 games, back to the Pirates for 1 good, 1 bad start, then back to Indy for 8 inconsistent starts combining for another unimpressive ERA of 4.14. Then back to the Pirates for 8 inconsistent starts with a 6.00 ERA over that span.
In the short 2020 season Keller put up the better stats. But Brubaker pitched about twice as much and had missed most of the previous season with his arm injury. Brubaker made 9 fairly inconsistent starts. Keller started only 5 games in 2020 and continued his AAA and MLB pattern of inconsistency with both good and terrible starts. The last 2 were memorable because he pitched 11 hitless innings but walked 10 and ran into high pitch counts by the 5th or 6th inning. But the 2 games before that were awful, lasting 3 innings or less. Given his pattern for inconsistency, it was good he ended 2020 on a high note before he had to pitch any more games.
This year Brubaker has put it together and is their most effective, most consistent pitcher. His 2.58 ERA is 13th in the NL. In his 7 starts, the only one that lasted less than 5 innings was the first one on April 5 when he pitched 4 innings. He has pitched 7 innings once, 6 innings twice, a 5.1 and two 5 inning outings. He gave up only 1 run in 4 of his 7 starts, 2 runs twice and 3 runs once.
Keller has made 7 starts alternating bad and good. The 3 good involve two 5 innings and one 5.1 inning outings. in the other 4 he lasted 2, 3.1, 2.1 and 3.1 innings. His ERA of 7.81 is sad. In the 3 good starts he gave up 0, 1 and 2 runs. in the 4 bad starts he gave up 3 runs, 4 runs, and 7 runs twice, all in 3.1 innings or less.
Keller has a lot more work to do to become an acceptable MLB pitcher, if that ever happens. But Brubaker seems to have arrived. It looks like they were hyping the wrong pitcher all along.
Brubaker began the 2019 very strong for Indy by suffered a right forearm strain and ended up pitching just 28 innings that year. Meanwhile Keller started the 2019 season with a fairly ordinary 3.45 ERA at Indy before making an unimpressive MLB debut in May, then going back to Indy for 2 games, back to the Pirates for 1 good, 1 bad start, then back to Indy for 8 inconsistent starts combining for another unimpressive ERA of 4.14. Then back to the Pirates for 8 inconsistent starts with a 6.00 ERA over that span.
In the short 2020 season Keller put up the better stats. But Brubaker pitched about twice as much and had missed most of the previous season with his arm injury. Brubaker made 9 fairly inconsistent starts. Keller started only 5 games in 2020 and continued his AAA and MLB pattern of inconsistency with both good and terrible starts. The last 2 were memorable because he pitched 11 hitless innings but walked 10 and ran into high pitch counts by the 5th or 6th inning. But the 2 games before that were awful, lasting 3 innings or less. Given his pattern for inconsistency, it was good he ended 2020 on a high note before he had to pitch any more games.
This year Brubaker has put it together and is their most effective, most consistent pitcher. His 2.58 ERA is 13th in the NL. In his 7 starts, the only one that lasted less than 5 innings was the first one on April 5 when he pitched 4 innings. He has pitched 7 innings once, 6 innings twice, a 5.1 and two 5 inning outings. He gave up only 1 run in 4 of his 7 starts, 2 runs twice and 3 runs once.
Keller has made 7 starts alternating bad and good. The 3 good involve two 5 innings and one 5.1 inning outings. in the other 4 he lasted 2, 3.1, 2.1 and 3.1 innings. His ERA of 7.81 is sad. In the 3 good starts he gave up 0, 1 and 2 runs. in the 4 bad starts he gave up 3 runs, 4 runs, and 7 runs twice, all in 3.1 innings or less.
Keller has a lot more work to do to become an acceptable MLB pitcher, if that ever happens. But Brubaker seems to have arrived. It looks like they were hyping the wrong pitcher all along.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
Good info and comparison, Bobster. Brubaker's consistency stands out. He's been giving the team a chance to win with each outing.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
6A3C2A3E312B3B303D2A183F35393134763B580 wrote: Good info and comparison, Bobster. Brubaker's consistency stands out. He's been giving the team a chance to win with each outing.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
644944555243541417260 wrote: Good info and comparison, Bobster. Brubaker's consistency stands out. He's been giving the team a chance to win with each outing.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
0A5C4A5E514B5B505D4A785F55595154165B380 wrote: Good info and comparison, Bobster. Brubaker's consistency stands out. He's been giving the team a chance to win with each outing.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
I just don't get where the hype comes from. Looking back at his minor league record and game logs, it looks like the transition from AA to AAA was difficult and he never mastered AAA hitters for more than a few games before they made him look bad. That's been his AAA and MLB pattern. I'm beginning to suspect the hype was born out of organization personnel not being willing to admit they were not able to bring him to the predicted level. So he's always just one start away from turning the corner and when he gets thru 5 innings without getting shelled, it's hailed as a great sign.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
I just don't get where the hype comes from. Looking back at his minor league record and game logs, it looks like the transition from AA to AAA was difficult and he never mastered AAA hitters for more than a few games before they made him look bad. That's been his AAA and MLB pattern. I'm beginning to suspect the hype was born out of organization personnel not being willing to admit they were not able to bring him to the predicted level. So he's always just one start away from turning the corner and when he gets thru 5 innings without getting shelled, it's hailed as a great sign.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
230E03121504135350610 wrote: Good info and comparison, Bobster. Brubaker's consistency stands out. He's been giving the team a chance to win with each outing.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
I just don't get where the hype comes from. Looking back at his minor league record and game logs, it looks like the transition from AA to AAA was difficult and he never mastered AAA hitters for more than a few games before they made him look bad. That's been his AAA and MLB pattern. [highlight]I'm beginning to suspect the hype was born out of organization personnel not being willing to admit they were not able to bring him to the predicted level.[/highlight] So he's always just one start away from turning the corner and when he gets thru 5 innings without getting shelled, it's hailed as a great sign.
I think you're right there, and also there was no one else in the system worth hyping. They made Keller the prophet because no one else was going to become even an average major leaguer. The damage Huntington did to this organization has been debilitating.
With regard to Keller, if the team were in a chase for the playoffs, they wouldn't be able to allow him to stay in the rotation. But in this season of what we know will be lots of losing, I think it's in the Pirates best interest to pitch Keller every five days. Let him figure out how to pitch, and pitch efficiently. If he shows no sign of getting better, or at least learning, then they can make a better decision about his future with the club. Don't give up on him, but let him sink or swim now while they can afford to do so.
Yeah, it looks like this will be a make or break season for Keller. As you said, there's no reason not to give him every chance to learn and improve. So maybe it will pay off and they will have another good pitcher. But so far, he's still the same inconsistent pitcher he's been since AAA several years ago. If he gets the entire season to try to figure things out but doesn't improve, they may have to give up on the idea that he's the next big thing and pencil him in as a #4 or 5 at best until a better option comes along.
Agreed. Giving him an entire major league season, without sacrificing important wins, to see if he can learn how to pitch, is prudent. If he shows no signs of "getting it", then the organization can better justify moving on from him.
I just don't get where the hype comes from. Looking back at his minor league record and game logs, it looks like the transition from AA to AAA was difficult and he never mastered AAA hitters for more than a few games before they made him look bad. That's been his AAA and MLB pattern. [highlight]I'm beginning to suspect the hype was born out of organization personnel not being willing to admit they were not able to bring him to the predicted level.[/highlight] So he's always just one start away from turning the corner and when he gets thru 5 innings without getting shelled, it's hailed as a great sign.
I think you're right there, and also there was no one else in the system worth hyping. They made Keller the prophet because no one else was going to become even an average major leaguer. The damage Huntington did to this organization has been debilitating.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - May 11 - Bucs vs Reds
Part of the debilitation, Huntington had nothing to do with. How many teams in our situation can withstand having one, maybe even two of the better pitchers dumped during off-seasons? I don't know if even the Dodgers or Mets wouldn't see a dropoff if they did it. That's bound to put the spotlight more on those who remain
Suspects are hyped because that's what people do with suspects. It's why they're called suspects. How many baseball guys are going to come out and say that some kid's no good? I can't think of many.
Suspects are hyped because that's what people do with suspects. It's why they're called suspects. How many baseball guys are going to come out and say that some kid's no good? I can't think of many.