Those of us of a certain age who can remember back to those 20 consecutive seasons of finishing with a losing record, I invite you to think about this:
Take the worst of those teams. It was leaps and bounds better than the one we see today.
I hate to say it, but I just don't think the Pirates can stay in business long-term if this, or anything close to this, keeps up much longer.
Look at this beauty of a list from 2010:
Pitchers
50 Brian Bass
71 Brian Burres
77 D. J. Carrasco
53 Brendan Donnelly
29 Octavio Dotel
57 Zach Duke
59 Dana Eveland
43 Sean Gallagher
52 Joel Hanrahan
58 Steven Jackson
39 Chris Jakubauskas
27 Jeff Karstens
36 Wil Ledezma
38 Chris Leroux
32 Brad Lincoln
48 Javier López
28 Paul Maholm
48 Joe Martinez
34 Daniel McCutchen
53 James McDonald
47 Evan Meek
37 Charlie Morton
49 Ross Ohlendorf
61 Chan Ho Park
62 Hayden Penn
30 Chris Resop
43 Jack Taschner
65 Justin Thomas
Catchers
41 Ryan Doumit
35 Jason Jaramillo
38 Erik Kratz
19 Chris Snyder
Infielders
17 Pedro Alvarez
13 Ronny Cedeño
16 Pedro Ciriaco
6 Jeff Clement
2 Bobby Crosby
73 Argenis Díaz
3 Akinori Iwamura
46 Garrett Jones
15 Andy LaRoche
51 Steven Pearce
18 Neil Walker
Outfielders
23 John Bowker
19 Ryan Church
22 Andrew McCutchen
85 Lastings Milledge
44 Brandon Moss
75 Alex Presley
58 John Raynor
31 José Tábata
24 Delwyn Young
Manager
7 John Russell
Coaches
86 Heberto Andrade (bullpen catcher)
55 Jeff Banister (bench)
10 Tony Beasley (third base)
60 Luis Dorante (bullpen)
12 Carlos García (first base)
39 Joe Kerrigan (pitching)
5 Don Long (hitting)
54 Ray Searage (pitching)
14 Gary Varsho (bench)
What we have today is a lot worse than what you just read.
Deep Concern
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GermanTownship
Deep Concern
Wait till next year. If it's possible, they will even be worse. The franchise will be an embarrassment to the entire league in regard to attendance and the team that they field. Who in their right mind would want to spend their hard earned dollars to watch them? These next two years may finally force the owner to sell. If they draw 300,000 fans next year, they will be lucky. These comments are coming from a lifelong Pirates fan that enjoyed watching them on tv and also going to see them. Can't do it anymore!
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Deep Concern
7557405F535C665D455C415A5B42320 wrote: [highlight]Wait till next year.[/highlight] If it's possible, [highlight]they will even be worse.[/highlight] The franchise will be an embarrassment to the entire league in regard to attendance and the team that they field. Who in their right mind would want to spend their hard earned dollars to watch them? These next two years may finally force the owner to sell. If they draw 300,000 fans next year, they will be lucky. These comments are coming from a lifelong Pirates fan that enjoyed watching them on tv and also going to see them. Can't do it anymore!
Thanks! I needed that ray of sunshine. Makes me feel better. (Sigh. Double sigh. Triple sigh)
Don't know whether to laff or cry at this point.
Thanks! I needed that ray of sunshine. Makes me feel better. (Sigh. Double sigh. Triple sigh)
Don't know whether to laff or cry at this point.
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Bobster21
Deep Concern
If there's any ray of hope it's that there could someday be another very brief window as there was 2013-15. Nutting owned that team too. Even then he was only at about 75% of the MLB average payroll.
And a lot of things came together for them. A few prospects came through (Cutch, Walker, Marte, Cole, Watson). A few reclamation pitchers worked out (Liriano, Volquez). A few trades worked out (Happ, Melancon, Blanton).
And 2 major moves brought a new attitude to a team that had been used to losing. Russell Martin signed a s a FA but only for 2 years before leaving. But in that time he was a great asset to the pitching staff and the clubhouse. Similarly, A.J. Burnett appeared washed up with NY. The Yankees traded him to the Pirates for 2 low end prospects and even paid most of his salary just to get rid of him. Burnett revived his career as a Pirates, regained his value as a good starter and brought a fiery attitude to the team.
The problem is that a lot of things have to fall in place. They probably got more out of Burnett, Melancon, Happ and Blanton than they had a right to expect. None were doing well at the time they were acquired. Hope is not a strategy but it seemed to work out that time. But it can't be the plan going forward.
And a lot of things came together for them. A few prospects came through (Cutch, Walker, Marte, Cole, Watson). A few reclamation pitchers worked out (Liriano, Volquez). A few trades worked out (Happ, Melancon, Blanton).
And 2 major moves brought a new attitude to a team that had been used to losing. Russell Martin signed a s a FA but only for 2 years before leaving. But in that time he was a great asset to the pitching staff and the clubhouse. Similarly, A.J. Burnett appeared washed up with NY. The Yankees traded him to the Pirates for 2 low end prospects and even paid most of his salary just to get rid of him. Burnett revived his career as a Pirates, regained his value as a good starter and brought a fiery attitude to the team.
The problem is that a lot of things have to fall in place. They probably got more out of Burnett, Melancon, Happ and Blanton than they had a right to expect. None were doing well at the time they were acquired. Hope is not a strategy but it seemed to work out that time. But it can't be the plan going forward.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Deep Concern
Those teams were a fantastic feeling because of our REGULAR season successes- after two decades of whatever. All of those good fortunes went only that far.
So, it depends on what satisfies each person. For me, I set the NLCS as my level. Winning a WS won't happen with our payroll level, so i go with what's realistic.
If enough folks are satisfied with winning RS games every short cycle, that's good for the franchise's future. If not, then trouble. I'd say it's big trouble. Fans won't put up with it.
So, it depends on what satisfies each person. For me, I set the NLCS as my level. Winning a WS won't happen with our payroll level, so i go with what's realistic.
If enough folks are satisfied with winning RS games every short cycle, that's good for the franchise's future. If not, then trouble. I'd say it's big trouble. Fans won't put up with it.
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ArnoldRothstein
Deep Concern
I think we're actually seeing the plan in action, that they intended to be down around .300 ball to compete for the really high picks. The evidence for that is the players they brought in last offseason. We'll have to wait for the offseason to see if they're ready to trend upward.
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ArnoldRothstein
Deep Concern
those 20 consecutive seasons of finishing with a losing record
Those teams had a remarkable consistency of putting a plausible major leaguer at every position, providing the prospect of a decent season if everyone had a good year.
Those teams had a remarkable consistency of putting a plausible major leaguer at every position, providing the prospect of a decent season if everyone had a good year.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3615
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Deep Concern
I am a longtime Pirate fan as many of you, but I still have confidence in the new FO. Cherington would not come here to fail. If he leaves in a couple years then I may be more pessimistic about the team. This team has a lot of Ifs, such as will Tailion return to his potential.?Is Keller the prospect we thought he was ? Which Reynolds is the real McCoy 2019 or 2020? They are only prospects, but are Cruz, Priester, Malone and Gonzales future high end pieces? This offseason is very important in my opinion. I think initially there are going to be added some new people under Cherington. His late arrival as GM last year made it difficult to hire some other people who were already under contract with other teams. I may be one of the few fans, but I expect a very interesting offseason.
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Bobster21
Deep Concern
1025323239003232393E32570 wrote: Those teams were a fantastic feeling because of our REGULAR season successes- after two decades of whatever. All of those good fortunes went only that far.
So, it depends on what satisfies each person. For me, I set the NLCS as my level. Winning a WS won't happen with our payroll level, so i go with what's realistic.
If enough folks are satisfied with winning RS games every short cycle, that's good for the franchise's future. If not, then trouble. I'd say it's big trouble. Fans won't put up with it.
I agree with you on the goal. But at least those teams had a chance to get there. Since then the team has spiraled into irrelevance. They need to put together a team with a legit chance and then add whatever pieces are needed to get over the hump. The time to do that was 2016 after a 98 win season. Instead, they pulled the plug and added Niese, Jaso and Vogelsong.
So, it depends on what satisfies each person. For me, I set the NLCS as my level. Winning a WS won't happen with our payroll level, so i go with what's realistic.
If enough folks are satisfied with winning RS games every short cycle, that's good for the franchise's future. If not, then trouble. I'd say it's big trouble. Fans won't put up with it.
I agree with you on the goal. But at least those teams had a chance to get there. Since then the team has spiraled into irrelevance. They need to put together a team with a legit chance and then add whatever pieces are needed to get over the hump. The time to do that was 2016 after a 98 win season. Instead, they pulled the plug and added Niese, Jaso and Vogelsong.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Deep Concern
685B4746454D7B465D415A5D4C4047290 wrote: those 20 consecutive seasons of finishing with a losing record
Those teams had a remarkable consistency of putting a plausible major leaguer at every position, providing the prospect of a decent season if everyone had a good year.
One could make that argument about any team, but I agree with your premise overall.
Look at that 2010 roster one more time. While there were surely a few true, talented MLB players, there were far too many who weren't. To expect good years out of too many of them would have been a stretch. The talent (with those) simply was not there.
Those teams had a remarkable consistency of putting a plausible major leaguer at every position, providing the prospect of a decent season if everyone had a good year.
One could make that argument about any team, but I agree with your premise overall.
Look at that 2010 roster one more time. While there were surely a few true, talented MLB players, there were far too many who weren't. To expect good years out of too many of them would have been a stretch. The talent (with those) simply was not there.