When it comes to the Pirates, they either ___ it up or they "nyuk" it up.
They either screw it up royally, or they look like stooges.
Sometimes, both.
Is there any question that one of the reasons that Neal Huntington still has his job this morning is because he is willing to take an arrow for the Nincompoop Nutting or the Cowering Coonelly.
Spin it the way you want, but Clint Hurdle was simply put out of his misery. While it's true he made some questionable managerial decisions, he was never given the tools to succeed in his job. At least if he had the tools, there would be no question whether he deserved the ax or not.
Huntington is in the same boat. He was likely told to cut ties with Hurdle, and then explain the decision. Such are the perks of working for weasels.
Hurdle didn't have the personnel that was going to win, especially when the injuries started piling up. Huntington didn't give him many options, but Huntington doesn't have many options either.
When you work for this crew, you are not running a baseball team, you are supporting a marketing department.
Hurdle's firing? Marketing...
Huntington's justification? Marketing...
Nutting's non appearance? Marketing, too. Why look like a boob when you can have someone do it for you?
Fret not for Bobby. He'll be doing the Curly Shuffle all the way to the bank.
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
The problem is when they use the term marketing, they are going against what that word really means. Marketing is spending money to make money - like bringing in good players and putting together a good competitive roster which brings in the people. You can't market this organization effectively. Firing Hurdle doesn't help marketing. Bringing in Travis D'Arnaud to catch, Mike Moustakas to play third, Nick Castellanos to play RF, Jake Odorizzi, Wade Miley and Gio for the rotation and Sean Doolittle to close markets. Notice, I'm not bringing in big time names.
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GnatsEyelash
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
6272734452525E310 wrote: The problem is when they use the term marketing, they are going against what that word really means. Marketing is spending money to make money - like bringing in good players and putting together a good competitive roster which brings in the people. You can't market this organization effectively. Firing Hurdle doesn't help marketing. Bringing in Travis D'Arnaud to catch, Mike Moustakas to play third, Nick Castellanos to play RF, Jake Odorizzi, Wade Miley and Gio for the rotation and Sean Doolittle to close markets. Notice, I'm not bringing in big time names.
Let me take another swing at the pinata...
What they call marketing and what we call marketing are two separate animals. Much of what I call marketing is based on credibility. Tell them what you are going to do, do it, and then take advantage of the credibility of what you've done.
The Pirates jumped the shark when they arrived in contention and did literally nothing to significantly improve the team's chances in October. Coonelly said they would spend money when it was time, when the fans showed up. That happened and they didn't. From that point, the fans who had been sucked in by the promise became jaded.
I will contend that Nutting sees his season ticket subscribers much like he sees, or saw, newspaper subscribers. Like he is the only show in town. I would say he is generally shocked that the people who came out to PNC for those three contending seasons have found other things to do from more credible sources.
That, and a generous dose of believing his own BS...
Let me take another swing at the pinata...
What they call marketing and what we call marketing are two separate animals. Much of what I call marketing is based on credibility. Tell them what you are going to do, do it, and then take advantage of the credibility of what you've done.
The Pirates jumped the shark when they arrived in contention and did literally nothing to significantly improve the team's chances in October. Coonelly said they would spend money when it was time, when the fans showed up. That happened and they didn't. From that point, the fans who had been sucked in by the promise became jaded.
I will contend that Nutting sees his season ticket subscribers much like he sees, or saw, newspaper subscribers. Like he is the only show in town. I would say he is generally shocked that the people who came out to PNC for those three contending seasons have found other things to do from more credible sources.
That, and a generous dose of believing his own BS...
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DemDog
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
7D545B4E497F435F565B49523A0 wrote: When it comes to the Pirates, they either ___ it up or they "nyuk" it up.
They either screw it up royally, or they look like stooges.
Sometimes, both.
Is there any question that one of the reasons that Neal Huntington still has his job this morning is because he is willing to take an arrow for the Nincompoop Nutting or the Cowering Coonelly.
Spin it the way you want, but Clint Hurdle was simply put out of his misery. While it's true he made some questionable managerial decisions, he was never given the tools to succeed in his job. At least if he had the tools, there would be no question whether he deserved the ax or not.
Huntington is in the same boat. He was likely told to cut ties with Hurdle, and then explain the decision. Such are the perks of working for weasels.
Hurdle didn't have the personnel that was going to win, especially when the injuries started piling up. Huntington didn't give him many options, but Huntington doesn't have many options either.
When you work for this crew, you are not running a baseball team, you are supporting a marketing department.
Hurdle's firing? Marketing...
Huntington's justification? Marketing...
Nutting's non appearance? Marketing, too. Why look like a boob when you can have someone do it for you?
Fret not for Bobby. He'll be doing the Curly Shuffle all the way to the bank.
Gnats, what an eloquent way to say that Nutting is cheap and that Frank and Neal are merely Nutting is cheap stooges.
Can't wait to see Bobby is cheap doing the Curly Shuffle while deciding on being accountable to the city and the fans.
Now all someone has to do is upload a gif for the Curly Shuffle to make things complete.
They either screw it up royally, or they look like stooges.
Sometimes, both.
Is there any question that one of the reasons that Neal Huntington still has his job this morning is because he is willing to take an arrow for the Nincompoop Nutting or the Cowering Coonelly.
Spin it the way you want, but Clint Hurdle was simply put out of his misery. While it's true he made some questionable managerial decisions, he was never given the tools to succeed in his job. At least if he had the tools, there would be no question whether he deserved the ax or not.
Huntington is in the same boat. He was likely told to cut ties with Hurdle, and then explain the decision. Such are the perks of working for weasels.
Hurdle didn't have the personnel that was going to win, especially when the injuries started piling up. Huntington didn't give him many options, but Huntington doesn't have many options either.
When you work for this crew, you are not running a baseball team, you are supporting a marketing department.
Hurdle's firing? Marketing...
Huntington's justification? Marketing...
Nutting's non appearance? Marketing, too. Why look like a boob when you can have someone do it for you?
Fret not for Bobby. He'll be doing the Curly Shuffle all the way to the bank.
Gnats, what an eloquent way to say that Nutting is cheap and that Frank and Neal are merely Nutting is cheap stooges.
Can't wait to see Bobby is cheap doing the Curly Shuffle while deciding on being accountable to the city and the fans.
Now all someone has to do is upload a gif for the Curly Shuffle to make things complete.
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ChickenWing
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:47 pm
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
SCBucco...
So funny i used D'Arnaud (and Castro), Castellanos and Odorizzi's name in the same conversation yesterday amongst friends. Think it will happen, probably not!
So funny i used D'Arnaud (and Castro), Castellanos and Odorizzi's name in the same conversation yesterday amongst friends. Think it will happen, probably not!
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WiffleballHero
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
So I guess my question is how did a management team that built a 98-win season in '15 from the Dark Days of the '00s turn into the Three Stooges in three short years?
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
0C323D3D373E393A3737133E29345B0 wrote: So I guess my question is how did a management team that built a 98-win season in '15 from the Dark Days of the '00s turn into the Three Stooges in three short years?
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
You summed up something of the things that have been on my mind quite well. I am tired of the black or white analysis of the Pirates and their management. I'm tired of the sophomoric name calling on this board.
I think Hurdle should have been fired. I think other coaches should follow. I think NH and Stark and other FO people should be fired. But at the same time, these guys all did something pretty spectacular in turning around the dumpster fire they inherited and making it something that was really special for 3 years. To say that they didn't win any division, NLCS, or World Series' is true, but it's also cherry picking some data to make a point. They were the winningest team in baseball over a multiyear span.
I think NH and his FO are bad at drafting and developing. However, in addition to the players you named, he drafted and developed Cole who almost won a Cy Young here. They drafted and developed Meadows and Glasnow who went to TB and immediately had success. TB didn't do any development with either of those guys. I don't know what to make of that, but it is the case.
They need to clean house. This season just went way too bad. A huge part was injuries. However, the epic, post ASG slide is on Hurdle. The fighting in the clubhouse is on Hurdle. The talent around MLB that used to be ours they we gave away for pennies on the dollar (Cole, Glasnow, Meadows, Dickerson to a lesser extent) is on NH and his staff. I think it is actually ridiculous that Hurdle was fired and NH was sent to explain it. One of the reasons why I like NH is that he pretty much admitted as much when asked. He said that the bad results weren't only on Hurdle. He acknowledged they were his fault too. I appreciate that. But he's not going to fire himself. As long as you are employed, you go out and do your best.
It's hard to imagine anyone fixing this dumpster fire with Nutting as the owner. Which makes it so amazing what these guys did for that window. Can anyone do it again?
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
You summed up something of the things that have been on my mind quite well. I am tired of the black or white analysis of the Pirates and their management. I'm tired of the sophomoric name calling on this board.
I think Hurdle should have been fired. I think other coaches should follow. I think NH and Stark and other FO people should be fired. But at the same time, these guys all did something pretty spectacular in turning around the dumpster fire they inherited and making it something that was really special for 3 years. To say that they didn't win any division, NLCS, or World Series' is true, but it's also cherry picking some data to make a point. They were the winningest team in baseball over a multiyear span.
I think NH and his FO are bad at drafting and developing. However, in addition to the players you named, he drafted and developed Cole who almost won a Cy Young here. They drafted and developed Meadows and Glasnow who went to TB and immediately had success. TB didn't do any development with either of those guys. I don't know what to make of that, but it is the case.
They need to clean house. This season just went way too bad. A huge part was injuries. However, the epic, post ASG slide is on Hurdle. The fighting in the clubhouse is on Hurdle. The talent around MLB that used to be ours they we gave away for pennies on the dollar (Cole, Glasnow, Meadows, Dickerson to a lesser extent) is on NH and his staff. I think it is actually ridiculous that Hurdle was fired and NH was sent to explain it. One of the reasons why I like NH is that he pretty much admitted as much when asked. He said that the bad results weren't only on Hurdle. He acknowledged they were his fault too. I appreciate that. But he's not going to fire himself. As long as you are employed, you go out and do your best.
It's hard to imagine anyone fixing this dumpster fire with Nutting as the owner. Which makes it so amazing what these guys did for that window. Can anyone do it again?
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
714F40404A4344474A4A6E435449260 wrote: So I guess my question is how did a management team that built a 98-win season in '15 from the Dark Days of the '00s turn into the Three Stooges in three short years?
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
how can you say that this is where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right?
Bell, Newman and Reynolds performed as no one expected this season. Frazier did as expected, Moran improved over last year, Marte was good again. A lot went wrong but there were good things too.
There's a lot of piling on the past few days -- not necessarily just on this board, but everywhere -- about how awful the Pirates have become, and I'm singing right along in that chorus. The State of the Ballclub is unwell at the moment.
But this is not like Bonifay and Littlefield, who ground down whatever assets this franchise once had to a nub. Sure, the three playoff years seem long ago, but the Pirates had a winning team as recently as...last year. Reynolds and Newman alone are reason for optimism. Bell might be too, if he listens to the Temptations and every day's the month of May. Keller isn't a bust. Marte and Frazier are decent. All were brought in (drafted or traded for) by the "morons" who are getting dog-piled the past few weeks.
I grant there have been too many missteps. And these stick out way more than on other clubs because of the financial situation of both MLB and the Pirates. Personally, I would have fired Huntington and Hurdle at the same time, and this year was a good enough reason to broom Huntington for the horrendous pitching (or "pitching") that was available to Hurdle. This was a classic Annus Horribilus where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right -- some of that was bad luck but too much of that was avoidable. But if Nutting is betting on Huntington righting the ship (pun intended), then I'm not so sure it's a doomed bet. I just don't think the Pirates are the hellscape they are being portrayed as. This isn't 2007. Or 2001. Or even 1993.
As for Nutting...well, that's a topic for another time.
how can you say that this is where everything goes wrong and nothing goes right?
Bell, Newman and Reynolds performed as no one expected this season. Frazier did as expected, Moran improved over last year, Marte was good again. A lot went wrong but there were good things too.
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GnatsEyelash
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
I hope I can do this succinctly.
Two quick stories.
When the glow went off of McClatchy's halo, I asked a friend in the front office if the Pirates were headed by Ogden Nutting instead, and he said things would not be much different.
Sure enough, that is how it has pretty much played out.
The second was when another friend had interviewed for the Orioles managerial job. Angelos asked him how he would set up the bullpen. He called his friend Leo Mazzone, the Braves pitching coach, who told Angelos that if he didn't have starters who could give him six innings on a consistent basis, it didn't matter how the pen would be set up, it would be toast by July.
Sure enough, that is how it played out for the Pirates this year.
That said, there is something to having a new voice in the clubhouse, and that part of the announcement rang true with me. Nine years is a long managerial run, and while Hurdle didn't totally deserve his fate, two days ago the Pirates would have been given some faint praise for cutting him loose, if only for the evident dysfunction on the team.
As for Huntington, as it was with Bonifay and Littlefield, operating with basically no room for error, eventually, and sometime sooner, you are going to make errors. Some of them will be fatal.
I think that sets up failure. If you want to win, you are going to have to take some chances. Those chances can go either way. And you are out on the limb because you have no money to bail you out.
I agree with you that the Pirates aren't as bad as they seemed in the pitiful stretches. In July, they were trotting out AAA roster filler in major league situations. That said, it is imperative that the Pirates invest in major league talent for their pitching staff. You can't just hope Chad Kuhl will bounce back with a superior season.
What's more, is that a big point was made about not spending the $50 million they received through major league baseball last off season, but to "invest it in the overall operation." It is key that they spend that money, and more, this off season on talent.
They are in the unenviable situation where they have zero credibility with their own fan base. I mentioned credibility and marketing in the same sentence earlier. They can't market their way out of this. They have to prove they are willing to make the steps to be competitive.
They, in this context, means Robert Nutting.
Two quick stories.
When the glow went off of McClatchy's halo, I asked a friend in the front office if the Pirates were headed by Ogden Nutting instead, and he said things would not be much different.
Sure enough, that is how it has pretty much played out.
The second was when another friend had interviewed for the Orioles managerial job. Angelos asked him how he would set up the bullpen. He called his friend Leo Mazzone, the Braves pitching coach, who told Angelos that if he didn't have starters who could give him six innings on a consistent basis, it didn't matter how the pen would be set up, it would be toast by July.
Sure enough, that is how it played out for the Pirates this year.
That said, there is something to having a new voice in the clubhouse, and that part of the announcement rang true with me. Nine years is a long managerial run, and while Hurdle didn't totally deserve his fate, two days ago the Pirates would have been given some faint praise for cutting him loose, if only for the evident dysfunction on the team.
As for Huntington, as it was with Bonifay and Littlefield, operating with basically no room for error, eventually, and sometime sooner, you are going to make errors. Some of them will be fatal.
I think that sets up failure. If you want to win, you are going to have to take some chances. Those chances can go either way. And you are out on the limb because you have no money to bail you out.
I agree with you that the Pirates aren't as bad as they seemed in the pitiful stretches. In July, they were trotting out AAA roster filler in major league situations. That said, it is imperative that the Pirates invest in major league talent for their pitching staff. You can't just hope Chad Kuhl will bounce back with a superior season.
What's more, is that a big point was made about not spending the $50 million they received through major league baseball last off season, but to "invest it in the overall operation." It is key that they spend that money, and more, this off season on talent.
They are in the unenviable situation where they have zero credibility with their own fan base. I mentioned credibility and marketing in the same sentence earlier. They can't market their way out of this. They have to prove they are willing to make the steps to be competitive.
They, in this context, means Robert Nutting.
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WiffleballHero
A Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a Poke in the Eyes
5F4266646A0F0 wrote:
They need to clean house. This season just went way too bad. A huge part was injuries. However, the epic, post ASG slide is on Hurdle.
I will never stop finding it ironic that the guy who took his team to the World Series in 2007 by winning 14 out of their last 15 games led his next team to three excruciating, year-ending collapses in nine years.
They need to clean house. This season just went way too bad. A huge part was injuries. However, the epic, post ASG slide is on Hurdle.
I will never stop finding it ironic that the guy who took his team to the World Series in 2007 by winning 14 out of their last 15 games led his next team to three excruciating, year-ending collapses in nine years.