I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
some other guys who could be useful include Bryan REynolds, Quinn Priester, Liover Peguero, Brennan Malone, Bell, Cederlind, Mason Martin...put those guys together with your grouping could be a decent core team...IF
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
I am concerned about the pitching.
Keller, Priester, Malone, Bolton, Thomas, Ashcroft, Burrows, Shortridge, MaCgregor,etc.
Enough of them need to come through to keep a strong rotation for a few years.
Keller, Priester, Malone, Bolton, Thomas, Ashcroft, Burrows, Shortridge, MaCgregor,etc.
Enough of them need to come through to keep a strong rotation for a few years.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
4F434A47500C564B4F4D564A5B101262454F220 wrote: I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
-
Bobster21
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
693F293D322838333E291B3C363A323775385B0 wrote: I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
416C61707766713132030 wrote: I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
Perfect summation. Huntington's plan was just as you described, to have capable guys come up to Pittsburgh to replace guys who were leaving. It's extremely difficult for that process to have success, let alone long running success. There will be too many misses, thus the need to fill-in with quality free agents. And with this owner, he's already shown he's not going to give his GM what's needed to make that happen.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
Perfect summation. Huntington's plan was just as you described, to have capable guys come up to Pittsburgh to replace guys who were leaving. It's extremely difficult for that process to have success, let alone long running success. There will be too many misses, thus the need to fill-in with quality free agents. And with this owner, he's already shown he's not going to give his GM what's needed to make that happen.
-
OrlandoMerced
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
I think they are more of a 70-80 win team, rather than a 100 loss team.
I think if Musgrove has a strong first half, he will be shopped at the deadline. He could fetch a decent prospect. NH was definitely thinking that 2020 and 2021 were going to be competitive years with a core of Marte, Bell, Polanco, Archer, Taillon, Williams, Musgrove, and Kela/Vazquez.
This administration will clearly not have the same incentive to view those seasons that way, so anyone from that perceived core will be made available in the coming years.
Newman and Reynolds are more fringe guys to me, Newman may not ever have enough power to be an everyday infielder (pitchers will be able to come at him more without fear of penalty) and Reynolds may also profile more as a 4th OF than a regular. But they are both guys that can get at bats and maybe develop in to role players as some of their higher ceiling prospects work their way up the system
I think Keller will be good, but he may be more of a mid-tier starter than an ace. Hopefully Tucker and Hayes take steps forward with the bat this year, if they can be all around players with the bat, to match the defense, then the outlook for this org changes drastically. In the sense that, instead of looking to move those 2020/21 core guys for teenagers, they look for guys close to the majors, and maybe see that current group of teenage prospects in the system as potential trade bait in 2022 than as the first wave of their competitive team.
I think if Musgrove has a strong first half, he will be shopped at the deadline. He could fetch a decent prospect. NH was definitely thinking that 2020 and 2021 were going to be competitive years with a core of Marte, Bell, Polanco, Archer, Taillon, Williams, Musgrove, and Kela/Vazquez.
This administration will clearly not have the same incentive to view those seasons that way, so anyone from that perceived core will be made available in the coming years.
Newman and Reynolds are more fringe guys to me, Newman may not ever have enough power to be an everyday infielder (pitchers will be able to come at him more without fear of penalty) and Reynolds may also profile more as a 4th OF than a regular. But they are both guys that can get at bats and maybe develop in to role players as some of their higher ceiling prospects work their way up the system
I think Keller will be good, but he may be more of a mid-tier starter than an ace. Hopefully Tucker and Hayes take steps forward with the bat this year, if they can be all around players with the bat, to match the defense, then the outlook for this org changes drastically. In the sense that, instead of looking to move those 2020/21 core guys for teenagers, they look for guys close to the majors, and maybe see that current group of teenage prospects in the system as potential trade bait in 2022 than as the first wave of their competitive team.
-
maher.timothy20@gm
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
664B46575041561615240 wrote: I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
This may be delusional but I'd like to think the new management team sees, and can convince Bob, the value in extending guys like Musgrove early, presuming he looks like he's reached the potential that people think he will. Otherwise it's like you say, the endless carousel of good players leaving to play their prime years with other teams.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
I agree that the guys you've listed are really important, but I think it's fair to also include both Reynolds and Newman. They can still be here for up to five more years. If last year wasn't a fluke for either one, they'll be very important players in the coming years.
Truthfully, we've yet to see Keller do anything that's encouraging. He needs to at least pitch one good game in April to prove he can succeed, to show us he has the ability to be a major league pitcher. I love Musgrove's demeanor and competitiveness, but he has to show he can consistently have effective outings. Maybe this will be his year to do that. As for Taillon, it's hard to count on him to stay healthy. It's terrible what he's gone through. I fear he'll reach free agency before he becomes that dominant pitcher we've all hoped he'd become.
I agree with all of that, Doc. Musgrove has proven to be a guy capable of stringing a few good games together but has too many bad games to be a dependable starter. He's a good #4-5 because of his inconsistency. He and Taillon are both FAs in 2023. The Pirates don't retain their FAs so they have to trade them with some time left on their contracts. Which means 2022 for those two pitchers. So if Musgrove and Taillon don't excel by 2021, they will leave without ever reaching their potential. The problem with relying almost exclusively on internally developing players is that their years are staggered and as some come up to the big leagues other are leaving as FAs. There are always going to be significant holes to fill and they can't be filled from the dumpster like Jaso and Vogelsong if the team is ever to compete again.
This may be delusional but I'd like to think the new management team sees, and can convince Bob, the value in extending guys like Musgrove early, presuming he looks like he's reached the potential that people think he will. Otherwise it's like you say, the endless carousel of good players leaving to play their prime years with other teams.
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
373B323F28742E3337352E3223686A1A3D375A0 wrote: I'm taking it as a given that this will be a 100+ loss season.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
_______
I guess we just have to "wait and see" how we do when those 5 guys get to the major leagues. And then when those 5 players come and go, then we can "wait and see" how we do when 5 other minor leaguers get here, the names that we don't know right now. I have no patience to wait for anybody to get to the major leagues, rather I will judge the Cherington management on what he does to improve the team right now, and right now he is doing little or nothing to improve the team.
I think the question of whether that continues is down to five guys:
Cole Tucker
Ke'Bryan Hayes
ONeil Cruz
Joe Musgrove
Mitch Keller
If Tucker, Hayes, and Cruz show they can hit like major leaguers, that's three positions we don't need to fill in the immediate future. (I'm assuming that by 2021 Cruz has been transitioned into right field and that Polanco will be traded.)
Musgrove looks dominant when he's on and I think he has the potential to be an ace or at least a really solid No. 2 starter.
And if Keller can establish himself as a decent pitcher we could go into 2021 with a pretty solid rotation and a decent chance of adding Taillon to the mix.
If none of those guys really establish themselves, we're probably looking at last place through 2024. But if they do we could be at least pretty good as early as next year.
Anyway that's who'll I'll be keeping an eye on this year. You?
_______
I guess we just have to "wait and see" how we do when those 5 guys get to the major leagues. And then when those 5 players come and go, then we can "wait and see" how we do when 5 other minor leaguers get here, the names that we don't know right now. I have no patience to wait for anybody to get to the major leagues, rather I will judge the Cherington management on what he does to improve the team right now, and right now he is doing little or nothing to improve the team.
-
Bobster21
The near-future of the franchise rests on five guys
The FA system is kryptonite for the Pirates. Other than some (but not even all) Hall of Famers, history shows that most good pitchers take several years to reach their prime. After 5 years a player becomes a FA. Letting them walk brings nothing in return other than compensation draft picks, which are hit or miss. Trading players with less than a full season left on their contract doesn't bring much in return. So generally it requires players to be dealt with 1 or 2 years left on their contracts to get even a decent return. Which means if your Pirate pitcher hasn't reached his prime by year 3 or 4, he'll have to do that for another team. And even if he does reach his prime by year 3, he'll be gone soon so there is a very limited window from which to take advantage. And that is further complicated by the team waiting to fill holes with prospects who may be a year or 2 away instead of spending to adequately fill holes during the small window they might have.