4542545C5245020E77505A565E5B1954585A370 wrote: Conservatively, the decisions of the front office has reduced attendance by Nearly 50%. They have driven away some 1,000,000 fans by the end of this year.
That many fans represent somewhere between $25M-$50M of revenue.... A year.... They’re really not very good business men either.
If they can send away a fan like myself of almost 40 years, what are the casual fans going to do. I only come here, check box scores and maybe catch an inning here and there now. I used to watch every single game. I will never spend a red cent going to a game with the way this management team runs things. I used to take a portion of my summer vacation and go to several games. Never again! I can take a week long beach vacation somewhere with the family for the same money!
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
605D434E414B40624A5D4C4A4B2F0 wrote: I think it's important to note that attendance is always going to align with on-field success. So say the Pirates spent 140M like the Royals, and sucked, then they would have bad attendance numbers.
I think it sucks that small market teams have to rely on attendance for operating revenue. But this is where we are, I really don't have a problem with what Neal is saying here, they are still in a good position where bad attendance isn't going to force them from having to dump contracts. But at the same time, if there is a real opportunity to improve the team by spending money, they should do that.
Really? Here's NH's quote that Freddy posted:
“If we are able to turn a corner and draw more people out then we’ll be able to put more into the club but they don’t necessarily go hand in hand. As we have shown in the past when the resources are there we’ll apply them.”
The first part of that quote (underlined) states an obvious truth which you've underscored in your post. Fine.
What isn't fine is the bolded part that follows which is weasel speak. Sure they'll "be able" to put more into the club, but please notice he doesn't state that they actually will put more into the club or even where they'll put it if they do (Nutting's wallet?). The last sentence is not only an obvious lie (resources were available like no time in recent Pirate history after the 2015 season, and nothing was applied) stated with either the conceited belief that the fan base has minimal, bovine-like memory skills or the honest statement of a completely delusional individual.
I think it sucks that small market teams have to rely on attendance for operating revenue. But this is where we are, I really don't have a problem with what Neal is saying here, they are still in a good position where bad attendance isn't going to force them from having to dump contracts. But at the same time, if there is a real opportunity to improve the team by spending money, they should do that.
Really? Here's NH's quote that Freddy posted:
“If we are able to turn a corner and draw more people out then we’ll be able to put more into the club but they don’t necessarily go hand in hand. As we have shown in the past when the resources are there we’ll apply them.”
The first part of that quote (underlined) states an obvious truth which you've underscored in your post. Fine.
What isn't fine is the bolded part that follows which is weasel speak. Sure they'll "be able" to put more into the club, but please notice he doesn't state that they actually will put more into the club or even where they'll put it if they do (Nutting's wallet?). The last sentence is not only an obvious lie (resources were available like no time in recent Pirate history after the 2015 season, and nothing was applied) stated with either the conceited belief that the fan base has minimal, bovine-like memory skills or the honest statement of a completely delusional individual.
-
SteadyFreddy
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
Getting back to the game real quick yesterday Clint was asked about Polanco’s big day after the game and said “I have always been in his corner and believe in this guy. Time will tell. Let’s see what happens if he turns it around. It’s either gonna happen or it’s not.” This goes back to what Bobster says about Hurdle just seeming like he could care less one way or another if the Pirates win or not by suggesting if Polanco hits or not as long as he continues to fight and try hard that’s all that matters. Well he better hit and he better turn it around because you got a lot of money tied up in this guy and you have a guy in Meadows who Polanco and his .200 average is blocking, and another guy in Dickerson who is still only 29 who you could possibly sign long term and let Polanco go for. So I just hate Clint’s just hum ho attitude that if Polanco hits great if he doesn’t then oh well no biggie he tried hard and it didn’t work out. Just another one of the big glaring problems on this management team that drives me nuts.
-
Bobster21
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
102D333E313B30123A2D3C3A3B5F0 wrote: I think it's important to note that attendance is always going to align with on-field success. So say the Pirates spent 140M like the Royals, and sucked, then they would have bad attendance numbers.
I think it sucks that small market teams have to rely on attendance for operating revenue. But this is where we are, I really don't have a problem with what Neal is saying here, they are still in a good position where bad attendance isn't going to force them from having to dump contracts. But at the same time, if there is a real opportunity to improve the team by spending money, they should do that.
But the problem is that they have already demonstrated an unwillingness to take advantage of attendance based revenue to improve--or even sustain--the team's ability to compete. Fans flocked to PNC in record numbers in 2015 and set a franchise attendance record for a 98-win team. TBMTIB promptly used that surge in revenue to let Happ go and replace him with Vogelsong and to address a need at 1B by signing a 2nd string catcher with little power (Jaso) to play there. And when improvement was needed over the perpetually disappointing Charlie Morton, they settled for Niese because they could trade Walker for him and the salaries would basically cancel each other out instead of paying more for a better pitcher. Predictably, a good team was rendered bad, attendance and revenue dropped. The Pirates had their chance and they blew it. So it's understandable that a small market team would tie attendance to operating revenue. The problem is that the Pirates don't even do that. Then they lie about it and say they will next time. No one believes them anymore.
I think it sucks that small market teams have to rely on attendance for operating revenue. But this is where we are, I really don't have a problem with what Neal is saying here, they are still in a good position where bad attendance isn't going to force them from having to dump contracts. But at the same time, if there is a real opportunity to improve the team by spending money, they should do that.
But the problem is that they have already demonstrated an unwillingness to take advantage of attendance based revenue to improve--or even sustain--the team's ability to compete. Fans flocked to PNC in record numbers in 2015 and set a franchise attendance record for a 98-win team. TBMTIB promptly used that surge in revenue to let Happ go and replace him with Vogelsong and to address a need at 1B by signing a 2nd string catcher with little power (Jaso) to play there. And when improvement was needed over the perpetually disappointing Charlie Morton, they settled for Niese because they could trade Walker for him and the salaries would basically cancel each other out instead of paying more for a better pitcher. Predictably, a good team was rendered bad, attendance and revenue dropped. The Pirates had their chance and they blew it. So it's understandable that a small market team would tie attendance to operating revenue. The problem is that the Pirates don't even do that. Then they lie about it and say they will next time. No one believes them anymore.
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
That's what NH must mean when he points out that payroll and attendance don't necessarily go hand in hand. Attendance figures when we were winning increased much more briskly than payroll.
Of course they don't go hand in hand, there are all kinds of revenue streams for a team beyond attendance. Not to mention the 40+ million in revenue sharing every year the org is getting.
The common sense facts of the matter are that this organization was running well into the black for years when we were winning. Well into the black. double digit millions in addition to the Equity value skyrocketing.
Everyone has already forgotten about the 50 million dollar BAM check Nutting received this spring too. So if this organization or it's pro-bono operational defenders wanna talk turkey ($), I dare them. ;D Bob Nutting can make a trillion dollar per year for all I care, so long as I've got a good baseball team to root for, that really tries to bring home championships or, at least, division titles.
The Pirates crying poor is hilarious. They wouldn't even pull a KC and run a revenue deficit for a WS push., they played it cheap in 2016. That's an embarrassing level of financial commitment from ownership.
Of course they don't go hand in hand, there are all kinds of revenue streams for a team beyond attendance. Not to mention the 40+ million in revenue sharing every year the org is getting.
The common sense facts of the matter are that this organization was running well into the black for years when we were winning. Well into the black. double digit millions in addition to the Equity value skyrocketing.
Everyone has already forgotten about the 50 million dollar BAM check Nutting received this spring too. So if this organization or it's pro-bono operational defenders wanna talk turkey ($), I dare them. ;D Bob Nutting can make a trillion dollar per year for all I care, so long as I've got a good baseball team to root for, that really tries to bring home championships or, at least, division titles.
The Pirates crying poor is hilarious. They wouldn't even pull a KC and run a revenue deficit for a WS push., they played it cheap in 2016. That's an embarrassing level of financial commitment from ownership.
-
SteadyFreddy
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
Even if the attendance does go up in the next month or so seeing that there are a ton of home games and let’s say the Pirates are 5 games over .500 at the break and 1 or 2 games out of a playoff spot does anybody really believe that any of the three stooges will actually go out and add a big time player to this roster?? Because based on what Huntington said yesterday he is suggesting if you as the fans come out and we win we will add payroll. God I hate that Bob Nutting owns this team. He has absolutely destroyed any kind of good relationship they previously had with this fan base.
-
OrlandoMerced
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
Yes, it's very baffling that a billion dollar franchise is continuing to insult it's fans by citing low attendance numbers for payroll decisions.
You win, people show up, simple as that. If you have to spend money to win, then you have to spend money.
You win, people show up, simple as that. If you have to spend money to win, then you have to spend money.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
48756B666963684A6275646263070 wrote: Yes, it's very baffling that a billion dollar franchise is continuing to insult it's fans by citing low attendance numbers for payroll decisions.
You win, people show up, simple as that. If you have to spend money to win, then you have to spend money.
Here’s the thing for me, and why I get amped up over this stuff: if the Pirates model is payroll follows attendance I can accept that. It puts the responsibility on the fans to “act in trust”, but okay. I accept the plan. So the Pirates indeed make multiple statements that payroll will follow attendance. They promise that when the time is right they will invest. The fans respond in HUGE numbers. By the winter of 2015/16 the time could never be better. And what do the Pirates do? They break the trust: despite fan response payroll is cut ~10%; despite having a potential WS team they do not invest they retract. And then in the spring they blame the fans.
I listened to Neal, hear him with my own ears say these two damming words: 1) we don’t spend more money because compared to the rest of MLB our fan support is barely average if that and specifically we don’t support the team like KC so don’t expect a KC payroll, and 2) “I keep hearing we need to spend more money; well it’s real easy to spend someone else’s money”.
So to be clear, I’m not complaining about whether Neal’s statement is reasonable or not, I’m stating a fact: they did not keep their word in the past. So hearing that same word today does not give me warm and fuzzy feelings.
I think Neal has an impossible job. There’s a lot about Neal I like. But I hate the kind of stuff we’re talking about here.
You win, people show up, simple as that. If you have to spend money to win, then you have to spend money.
Here’s the thing for me, and why I get amped up over this stuff: if the Pirates model is payroll follows attendance I can accept that. It puts the responsibility on the fans to “act in trust”, but okay. I accept the plan. So the Pirates indeed make multiple statements that payroll will follow attendance. They promise that when the time is right they will invest. The fans respond in HUGE numbers. By the winter of 2015/16 the time could never be better. And what do the Pirates do? They break the trust: despite fan response payroll is cut ~10%; despite having a potential WS team they do not invest they retract. And then in the spring they blame the fans.
I listened to Neal, hear him with my own ears say these two damming words: 1) we don’t spend more money because compared to the rest of MLB our fan support is barely average if that and specifically we don’t support the team like KC so don’t expect a KC payroll, and 2) “I keep hearing we need to spend more money; well it’s real easy to spend someone else’s money”.
So to be clear, I’m not complaining about whether Neal’s statement is reasonable or not, I’m stating a fact: they did not keep their word in the past. So hearing that same word today does not give me warm and fuzzy feelings.
I think Neal has an impossible job. There’s a lot about Neal I like. But I hate the kind of stuff we’re talking about here.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
042635282B2E29260532242428470 wrote: VaPirate is right on the mark with these posts. Well said.
It's absolutely criminal the way ownership/management handled this team following the 2015 season. And, like Va said, it was a STUPID business plan. They completely blew a golden opportunity to take this franchise to the top and make it one of the model (and WINNING) organizations in all of major league sports.
It was RIGHT THERE following 2015, and they completely ruined it and screwed up the entire franchise in the process.
I agree 100% with this statement: I think the Pirates had a chance to become a model franchise. I think they could have averaged 2.6-2.7 million fans a year. As you say: it was right there.
It's absolutely criminal the way ownership/management handled this team following the 2015 season. And, like Va said, it was a STUPID business plan. They completely blew a golden opportunity to take this franchise to the top and make it one of the model (and WINNING) organizations in all of major league sports.
It was RIGHT THERE following 2015, and they completely ruined it and screwed up the entire franchise in the process.
I agree 100% with this statement: I think the Pirates had a chance to become a model franchise. I think they could have averaged 2.6-2.7 million fans a year. As you say: it was right there.
-
Bobster21
Reds@Pirates 6/17 Game Thread...
5F584E46485F18146D4A404C4441034E42402D0 wrote: VaPirate is right on the mark with these posts. Well said.
It's absolutely criminal the way ownership/management handled this team following the 2015 season. And, like Va said, it was a STUPID business plan. They completely blew a golden opportunity to take this franchise to the top and make it one of the model (and WINNING) organizations in all of major league sports.
It was RIGHT THERE following 2015, and they completely ruined it and screwed up the entire franchise in the process.
I agree 100% with this statement: I think the Pirates had a chance to become a model franchise. I think they could have averaged 2.6-2.7 million fans a year. As you say: it was right there.
I've always felt Nutting & Co. meant well initially and were following their plan thru 2015. In 2015 they were still more than 30 million below the MLB average payroll. The obvious moves were to upgrade 1B (a good, power hitting 1Bman costs money) and to upgrade the rotation where Burnett was retiring and Morton and Locke were always problematic. They had a very effective Happ but keeping him via free agency was going to cost. IMHO, it was at that time when Nutting realized that the obvious changes a good 2015 team would need to make to continue to build on what they started in 2013 was more than he was willing to pay. He had a lot of revenue from record attendance and improvement at 1B and pitching was a must. But I think Nutting concluded that if it took another 30 million just to have an average payroll, he wasn't going to go there. He would not acquire a quality (i.e., high priced) pitcher or 1Bman and the team would have to get by as best they could without significant payroll additions.
We can't see the books but it appears he's concluded he'll benefit more from a worse team with a smaller payroll and lower attendance than from greater attendance/revenue and the type of payroll that would be required to keep fans interested in a better team. I don't think he's a bad businessman. I suspect he's cooked the books and found he'll make a better profit this way. So NH has an impossible task. He'd like to have a winning team but he can only try to assemble one with minimal resources. Hence the pitching staff with only 2 pitchers not making under $600,000 when the MLB minimum is $545,000. He's hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a very cheap (comparatively) pitching staff because spending more is not an option. And he's defending his boss and selling it to the fans by saying it's our fault for not providing better support for the poor product he puts on the field, which started when they had the revenue but chose not to spend it. So now no one believes that they would put a better product on the field even if they had more revenue. They already proved they wouldn't.
It's absolutely criminal the way ownership/management handled this team following the 2015 season. And, like Va said, it was a STUPID business plan. They completely blew a golden opportunity to take this franchise to the top and make it one of the model (and WINNING) organizations in all of major league sports.
It was RIGHT THERE following 2015, and they completely ruined it and screwed up the entire franchise in the process.
I agree 100% with this statement: I think the Pirates had a chance to become a model franchise. I think they could have averaged 2.6-2.7 million fans a year. As you say: it was right there.
I've always felt Nutting & Co. meant well initially and were following their plan thru 2015. In 2015 they were still more than 30 million below the MLB average payroll. The obvious moves were to upgrade 1B (a good, power hitting 1Bman costs money) and to upgrade the rotation where Burnett was retiring and Morton and Locke were always problematic. They had a very effective Happ but keeping him via free agency was going to cost. IMHO, it was at that time when Nutting realized that the obvious changes a good 2015 team would need to make to continue to build on what they started in 2013 was more than he was willing to pay. He had a lot of revenue from record attendance and improvement at 1B and pitching was a must. But I think Nutting concluded that if it took another 30 million just to have an average payroll, he wasn't going to go there. He would not acquire a quality (i.e., high priced) pitcher or 1Bman and the team would have to get by as best they could without significant payroll additions.
We can't see the books but it appears he's concluded he'll benefit more from a worse team with a smaller payroll and lower attendance than from greater attendance/revenue and the type of payroll that would be required to keep fans interested in a better team. I don't think he's a bad businessman. I suspect he's cooked the books and found he'll make a better profit this way. So NH has an impossible task. He'd like to have a winning team but he can only try to assemble one with minimal resources. Hence the pitching staff with only 2 pitchers not making under $600,000 when the MLB minimum is $545,000. He's hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a very cheap (comparatively) pitching staff because spending more is not an option. And he's defending his boss and selling it to the fans by saying it's our fault for not providing better support for the poor product he puts on the field, which started when they had the revenue but chose not to spend it. So now no one believes that they would put a better product on the field even if they had more revenue. They already proved they wouldn't.