Let the rumor mill begin
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Let the rumor mill begin
The "win the trades" part is where it starts to get tricky.
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Bobster21
Let the rumor mill begin
We need to stop thinking in terms of winning trades and think of winning championships. Obviously, we want good returns on any trades. But this team will never even sniff a championship if they just keep trading veterans for more prospects who, even if they become very good players, will only in turn be traded for more prospects in a few years. NH needs to address specific needs to produce a top level MLB team. For instance, they have a bunch of young pitchers none of whom, including Taillon, have distinguished themselves as impact players. They also have 4 good outfielders including Meadows. Maybe Marte and a young pitcher could bring an established, productive starting pitcher. Or an upgrade over Moran or Bell. In other words, trades should be made to address specific needs to build a team capable of going a long way. And not just to feel the return on the trades was better than what they gave up while trying to make do in other areas of need.
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OrlandoMerced
Let the rumor mill begin
The Astros and Indians both have some highly touted prospects in their systems, that yankees as well. If any of them are willing to move one of those prospects for Vazquez, NH has to do it.
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Bobster21
Let the rumor mill begin
49746A676862694B6374656362060 wrote: The Astros and Indians both have some highly touted prospects in their systems, that yankees as well. If any of them are willing to move one of those prospects for Vazquez, NH has to do it.
Why? What good are prospects if the team will only tread water until those prospects become major leaguers who are eventually dealt for more prospects? Unless there's a definitive effort to build a competitive team and address specific needs, trading Vazquez for prospects won't matter. We can go all the way back to trades for Jason Schmidt, Freddy Sanchez, Jason Bay, Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, Lastings Milledge, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, Ross Ohlendorf, James McDonald, Jose Tabata, Travis Snider. I'm tired of trading for prospects just to trade for prospects. They come and go and nothing changes. Harrison was once a prospect obtained in a trade. Now he's rumored to be in the next wave of traded veterans. What did the Pirates gain? 3 WC appearances, two of which they got shut out. 1 WC win followed by a division playoff loss and then back to losing again. If they're not going to build a complete team then getting prospects to play on a losing team until it's time to unload them for more prospects won't matter and they might as well let Vazquez pitch for the Pirates.
Why? What good are prospects if the team will only tread water until those prospects become major leaguers who are eventually dealt for more prospects? Unless there's a definitive effort to build a competitive team and address specific needs, trading Vazquez for prospects won't matter. We can go all the way back to trades for Jason Schmidt, Freddy Sanchez, Jason Bay, Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, Lastings Milledge, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, Ross Ohlendorf, James McDonald, Jose Tabata, Travis Snider. I'm tired of trading for prospects just to trade for prospects. They come and go and nothing changes. Harrison was once a prospect obtained in a trade. Now he's rumored to be in the next wave of traded veterans. What did the Pirates gain? 3 WC appearances, two of which they got shut out. 1 WC win followed by a division playoff loss and then back to losing again. If they're not going to build a complete team then getting prospects to play on a losing team until it's time to unload them for more prospects won't matter and they might as well let Vazquez pitch for the Pirates.
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OrlandoMerced
Let the rumor mill begin
For three reasons, 1. RP's are volatile assets, and at some point Vazquez will be a liability. 2. They have three strong relief options in Santana, Crick and Rodriguez and other guys like Feliz and Glasnow that could be huge assets out of the pen, meaning that I think Vazquez is replaceable. 3. NH has always been good at managing the bullpen, it's the one thing you can really trust him on. So leverage assets there to fill other roster holes is doable.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Let the rumor mill begin
517C71606776612122130 wrote: The Astros and Indians both have some highly touted prospects in their systems, that yankees as well. If any of them are willing to move one of those prospects for Vazquez, NH has to do it.
Why? What good are prospects if the team will only tread water until those prospects become major leaguers who are eventually dealt for more prospects? Unless there's a definitive effort to build a competitive team and address specific needs, trading Vazquez for prospects won't matter. We can go all the way back to trades for Jason Schmidt, Freddy Sanchez, Jason Bay, Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, Lastings Milledge, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, Ross Ohlendorf, James McDonald, Jose Tabata, Travis Snider. I'm tired of trading for prospects just to trade for prospects. They come and go and nothing changes. Harrison was once a prospect obtained in a trade. Now he's rumored to be in the next wave of traded veterans. What did the Pirates gain? 3 WC appearances, two of which they got shut out. 1 WC win followed by a division playoff loss and then back to losing again. If they're not going to build a complete team then getting prospects to play on a losing team until it's time to unload them for more prospects won't matter and they might as well let Vazquez pitch for the Pirates.
I think you still need to make an exception for closers/RPers. They turn over so fast and are often overvalued in returns. I didn't hear anyone saying we needed to keep him earlier this season when he was giving up 4 runs every ninth inning.
Why? What good are prospects if the team will only tread water until those prospects become major leaguers who are eventually dealt for more prospects? Unless there's a definitive effort to build a competitive team and address specific needs, trading Vazquez for prospects won't matter. We can go all the way back to trades for Jason Schmidt, Freddy Sanchez, Jason Bay, Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, Lastings Milledge, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, Ross Ohlendorf, James McDonald, Jose Tabata, Travis Snider. I'm tired of trading for prospects just to trade for prospects. They come and go and nothing changes. Harrison was once a prospect obtained in a trade. Now he's rumored to be in the next wave of traded veterans. What did the Pirates gain? 3 WC appearances, two of which they got shut out. 1 WC win followed by a division playoff loss and then back to losing again. If they're not going to build a complete team then getting prospects to play on a losing team until it's time to unload them for more prospects won't matter and they might as well let Vazquez pitch for the Pirates.
I think you still need to make an exception for closers/RPers. They turn over so fast and are often overvalued in returns. I didn't hear anyone saying we needed to keep him earlier this season when he was giving up 4 runs every ninth inning.
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Bobster21
Let the rumor mill begin
As I said, there needs to be a concerted effort to build a winning team capable of going far into the post season. If trading Vazquez can help accomplish that, then fine. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be such a plan and it's merely, "What can we get for this guy and will we win the trade?" That's not good enough.
Let the rumor mill begin
486568797E6F78383B0A0 wrote: As I said, there needs to be a concerted effort to build a winning team capable of going far into the post season. If trading Vazquez can help accomplish that, then fine. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be such a plan and it's merely, "What can we get for this guy and will we win the trade?" That's not good enough.
Completely agree with your frustration over the notion that the moment someone begins to perform well we start thinking of dumping them. Sure, if there is an area of strength (possibly the outfield) you consider trading good players for prospects. But at some point you have to actually hold on to an asset or two. Yes, this management team has managed to cobble together a decent bullpen more often than not, and sometimes get workable closers out of people like Melancon and Grilli. But isn't it nice to actually have a closer that inspires a little awe and fear? Can't we enjoy that for a little while before we run him out of town?
Completely agree with your frustration over the notion that the moment someone begins to perform well we start thinking of dumping them. Sure, if there is an area of strength (possibly the outfield) you consider trading good players for prospects. But at some point you have to actually hold on to an asset or two. Yes, this management team has managed to cobble together a decent bullpen more often than not, and sometimes get workable closers out of people like Melancon and Grilli. But isn't it nice to actually have a closer that inspires a little awe and fear? Can't we enjoy that for a little while before we run him out of town?
Let the rumor mill begin
724F515C53595270584F5E58593D0 wrote: The Astros and Indians both have some highly touted prospects in their systems, that yankees as well. If any of them are willing to move one of those prospects for Vazquez, NH has to do it.
Do you realize who the Yanks have in their bullpen? The last addition they need is Vazquez. They have two of him.
Do you realize who the Yanks have in their bullpen? The last addition they need is Vazquez. They have two of him.
Let the rumor mill begin
507D70616677602023120 wrote: As I said, there needs to be a concerted effort to build a winning team capable of going far into the post season. If trading Vazquez can help accomplish that, then fine. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be such a plan and it's merely, "What can we get for this guy and will we win the trade?" That's not good enough.
Everyone uses the built in excuse that we are young. I've seen this in the preseason by management and the FO. So, you trade a young Vasquez for a package of younger prospects who haven't made it to the majors, then ... you are even younger in major league experience AND one or two of those prospects could bust.
Win the trade is always nice, but I don't have much faith in the GM winning a trade of Vazquez. He is the best trade chip now ... you better be looking to fill certain positions if you deal him ... not just acquire talent at whatever position. There are glaring holes in this organization at certain positions (C, SP, even a 1B). Those players acquired better be talented and MLB ready.
As far as position players, I don't see good returns coming for many absent Machado. Pitching seems to be the big need for everyone.
Everyone uses the built in excuse that we are young. I've seen this in the preseason by management and the FO. So, you trade a young Vasquez for a package of younger prospects who haven't made it to the majors, then ... you are even younger in major league experience AND one or two of those prospects could bust.
Win the trade is always nice, but I don't have much faith in the GM winning a trade of Vazquez. He is the best trade chip now ... you better be looking to fill certain positions if you deal him ... not just acquire talent at whatever position. There are glaring holes in this organization at certain positions (C, SP, even a 1B). Those players acquired better be talented and MLB ready.
As far as position players, I don't see good returns coming for many absent Machado. Pitching seems to be the big need for everyone.