2D2A3C343A2D6A661F38323E3633713C30325F0 wrote: The last few games have given us a glimpse of what “the best outfield in baseball” was projected to look like. Frankly, it looked like the best OF in baseball, Devastating.
It raises intriguing possibilities. Building a contending team around Dickerson, Marte and Polanco makes all the sense if their recent play indicates they are finally maturing into the talent we always hoped for. Trading Meadows should bring some good pieces back.
I haven’t checked contract status, but if we could sign Dickerson for four years and actually keep he and Marte and Polanco for at least three years, i’d trade Meadows.
Would $25M a year cover the three outfielders? The Pirates should be able to spend that amount of money.
I like the premise, but think it’s a bit risky to build around those three right now. Polanco has a history of streaks and this could come crashing down anytime. Dickerson is a professional hitter and I would like to keep him around, but he might not be a core pillar.
I also think Jason Martin could force his way into the picture next year, which would make marte expendable it the Pirates were to fall out of contention next season. Seems like a fluid situation to me and the more options the better, I think they need to get their infield sorted out ASAP though
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
6642565E5B370 wrote: I think this team desperately needs three things to become a genuine playoff contender.
1. Some elite talent. Preferably in the starting rotation. Obviously with current ownership unwilling to take on the expense of an established top pitcher through free agency or trade that will require one of our plethora of young starters to step up. Taillon, Musgrove, Glasnow and Keller would seem to be the candidates with the type of pedigree needed, but of course there are no guarantees. The remarkable success Gerrit Cole has had after arriving in Houston doesn't give me the greatest confidence that the Pirates have the right management and coaching personnel to develop young pitchers to their full potential but they desperately need to.
2. Better defense. The Pirates are bad defensively. Only Marte gives us a plus defender in CF. Combine that with a young pitching staff and you have a formula for disaster. Our young pitchers who need to build confidence in order to attain consistency on the mound are being undermined by defenders extending innings and pitch counts instead of being bailed out of jams.
Bell at 1B and Moran at 3B are pylons. Neither is good enough offensively at this point to say they should be fixtures at those positions. Diaz at C (while Cervelli's future at C is uncertain) is raking offensively which is great, but his defensive miscues are too frequent to ignore and his pitch framing has been roundly criticized which is an additional liability that a young pitching staff shouldn't have to deal with. He may be the next Mickey Tettleton, but even with Mickey's great bat he only averaged about 70 games caught per year in his career. Polanco has the power we've been looking for from a corner outfielder but his glove has always been frustratingly inconsistent at best. Dickerson and Meadows are decent defensively, but lack Polanco's power. The mostly reliable Mercer and Harrison will be gone by the start of next season, and their replacements at 2B and SS need to have better than average MLB gloves to help counterbalance the two corner infield positions. Are Moroff or The Kevins capable when what is really needed is Maz and Ozzie Smith? Kang at SS? Surely not because he most certainly would not be a plus defender at that position. Put him where he belongs at 3B where he is a plus defender.
3. A better field manager. Clint Hurdle has become an impediment to winning. His inexplicable strategies and personnel decisions have confused and angered players. His infuriatingly nonchalant attitude about losing is the antithesis of what young players should be seeing in a leader or role model. He needed to walk the plank yesterday.
I agree with all 3, but would much rather have elite positional talent than pitching. We have decent pitching talent already (being killed by the fielder's). What we don't have are position players worth a d@mn.
This is one of the worst infields I've ever seen. JHay has tanked defensively this year, mercer is bad. Moran and Bell are atrocious and Diaz is also bad. Combine that with our pitching staff being unable to field and it's a total disaster. Our inability to turn infield groundballs into outs is historically bad so far. This is a historically bad infield defense, the worst in baseball. The worst I've ever seen put on a Pirates uniform, but I've only seen teams since the late 80s.
In my opinion:
1) mercer and Jhay need moved for anything. Newman and Kramer may not be any better offensively, but they aren't going to be worse overall.
2) Moran has no future likely as much of anything, but certainly not future as a starting 3bman. He's not a good hitter either, and is platooning. Kang needs to get his wrist healthy. I would play Freese over Moran regularly moving forward. He shouldn't be on the field much, unless he can field 1b. If you can get anything for Moran, I'd trade him now. No future.
3). Bell has no future as a starting 1bman. His defense is woeful and even if he gets back to 25 hr hitter or 30, he will never be anything more than a passable starting option. However since he has already shown that kind of power vs big league pitching and we have no other options I would definitely hold him for now.
5) Diaz I don't know. Defensively not good but shows flashes of plus defense with his big arm. I don't know. If he hits he should be ok. But again, nothing too good.
So I'd replace three-fifths of the infield immediately, and consider Bell a tenuous placeholder at 1b until a true 1bman can be found or he improves his defense. Defensive improvement may still be possible from him since he was an outfielder before switching.
When your infield stinks this bad, it's tough to build a good team
1. Some elite talent. Preferably in the starting rotation. Obviously with current ownership unwilling to take on the expense of an established top pitcher through free agency or trade that will require one of our plethora of young starters to step up. Taillon, Musgrove, Glasnow and Keller would seem to be the candidates with the type of pedigree needed, but of course there are no guarantees. The remarkable success Gerrit Cole has had after arriving in Houston doesn't give me the greatest confidence that the Pirates have the right management and coaching personnel to develop young pitchers to their full potential but they desperately need to.
2. Better defense. The Pirates are bad defensively. Only Marte gives us a plus defender in CF. Combine that with a young pitching staff and you have a formula for disaster. Our young pitchers who need to build confidence in order to attain consistency on the mound are being undermined by defenders extending innings and pitch counts instead of being bailed out of jams.
Bell at 1B and Moran at 3B are pylons. Neither is good enough offensively at this point to say they should be fixtures at those positions. Diaz at C (while Cervelli's future at C is uncertain) is raking offensively which is great, but his defensive miscues are too frequent to ignore and his pitch framing has been roundly criticized which is an additional liability that a young pitching staff shouldn't have to deal with. He may be the next Mickey Tettleton, but even with Mickey's great bat he only averaged about 70 games caught per year in his career. Polanco has the power we've been looking for from a corner outfielder but his glove has always been frustratingly inconsistent at best. Dickerson and Meadows are decent defensively, but lack Polanco's power. The mostly reliable Mercer and Harrison will be gone by the start of next season, and their replacements at 2B and SS need to have better than average MLB gloves to help counterbalance the two corner infield positions. Are Moroff or The Kevins capable when what is really needed is Maz and Ozzie Smith? Kang at SS? Surely not because he most certainly would not be a plus defender at that position. Put him where he belongs at 3B where he is a plus defender.
3. A better field manager. Clint Hurdle has become an impediment to winning. His inexplicable strategies and personnel decisions have confused and angered players. His infuriatingly nonchalant attitude about losing is the antithesis of what young players should be seeing in a leader or role model. He needed to walk the plank yesterday.
I agree with all 3, but would much rather have elite positional talent than pitching. We have decent pitching talent already (being killed by the fielder's). What we don't have are position players worth a d@mn.
This is one of the worst infields I've ever seen. JHay has tanked defensively this year, mercer is bad. Moran and Bell are atrocious and Diaz is also bad. Combine that with our pitching staff being unable to field and it's a total disaster. Our inability to turn infield groundballs into outs is historically bad so far. This is a historically bad infield defense, the worst in baseball. The worst I've ever seen put on a Pirates uniform, but I've only seen teams since the late 80s.
In my opinion:
1) mercer and Jhay need moved for anything. Newman and Kramer may not be any better offensively, but they aren't going to be worse overall.
2) Moran has no future likely as much of anything, but certainly not future as a starting 3bman. He's not a good hitter either, and is platooning. Kang needs to get his wrist healthy. I would play Freese over Moran regularly moving forward. He shouldn't be on the field much, unless he can field 1b. If you can get anything for Moran, I'd trade him now. No future.
3). Bell has no future as a starting 1bman. His defense is woeful and even if he gets back to 25 hr hitter or 30, he will never be anything more than a passable starting option. However since he has already shown that kind of power vs big league pitching and we have no other options I would definitely hold him for now.
5) Diaz I don't know. Defensively not good but shows flashes of plus defense with his big arm. I don't know. If he hits he should be ok. But again, nothing too good.
So I'd replace three-fifths of the infield immediately, and consider Bell a tenuous placeholder at 1b until a true 1bman can be found or he improves his defense. Defensive improvement may still be possible from him since he was an outfielder before switching.
When your infield stinks this bad, it's tough to build a good team
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
424B43525C260 wrote: I think this team desperately needs three things to become a genuine playoff contender.
1. Some elite talent. Preferably in the starting rotation. Obviously with current ownership unwilling to take on the expense of an established top pitcher through free agency or trade that will require one of our plethora of young starters to step up. Taillon, Musgrove, Glasnow and Keller would seem to be the candidates with the type of pedigree needed, but of course there are no guarantees. The remarkable success Gerrit Cole has had after arriving in Houston doesn't give me the greatest confidence that the Pirates have the right management and coaching personnel to develop young pitchers to their full potential but they desperately need to.
2. Better defense. The Pirates are bad defensively. Only Marte gives us a plus defender in CF. Combine that with a young pitching staff and you have a formula for disaster. Our young pitchers who need to build confidence in order to attain consistency on the mound are being undermined by defenders extending innings and pitch counts instead of being bailed out of jams.
Bell at 1B and Moran at 3B are pylons. Neither is good enough offensively at this point to say they should be fixtures at those positions. Diaz at C (while Cervelli's future at C is uncertain) is raking offensively which is great, but his defensive miscues are too frequent to ignore and his pitch framing has been roundly criticized which is an additional liability that a young pitching staff shouldn't have to deal with. He may be the next Mickey Tettleton, but even with Mickey's great bat he only averaged about 70 games caught per year in his career. Polanco has the power we've been looking for from a corner outfielder but his glove has always been frustratingly inconsistent at best. Dickerson and Meadows are decent defensively, but lack Polanco's power. The mostly reliable Mercer and Harrison will be gone by the start of next season, and their replacements at 2B and SS need to have better than average MLB gloves to help counterbalance the two corner infield positions. Are Moroff or The Kevins capable when what is really needed is Maz and Ozzie Smith? Kang at SS? Surely not because he most certainly would not be a plus defender at that position. Put him where he belongs at 3B where he is a plus defender.
3. A better field manager. Clint Hurdle has become an impediment to winning. His inexplicable strategies and personnel decisions have confused and angered players. His infuriatingly nonchalant attitude about losing is the antithesis of what young players should be seeing in a leader or role model. He needed to walk the plank yesterday.
I agree with all 3, but would much rather have elite positional talent than pitching. We have decent pitching talent already (being killed by the fielder's). What we don't have are position players worth a d@mn.
This is one of the worst infields I've ever seen. JHay has tanked defensively this year, mercer is bad. Moran and Bell are atrocious and Diaz is also bad. Combine that with our pitching staff being unable to field and it's a total disaster. Our inability to turn infield groundballs into outs is historically bad so far. This is a historically bad infield defense, the worst in baseball. The worst I've ever seen put on a Pirates uniform, but I've only seen teams since the late 80s.
In my opinion:
1) mercer and Jhay need moved for anything. Newman and Kramer may not be any better offensively, but they aren't going to be worse overall.
2) Moran has no future likely as much of anything, but certainly not future as a starting 3bman. He's not a good hitter either, and is platooning. Kang needs to get his wrist healthy. I would play Freese over Moran regularly moving forward. He shouldn't be on the field much, unless he can field 1b. If you can get anything for Moran, I'd trade him now. No future.
3). Bell has no future as a starting 1bman. His defense is woeful and even if he gets back to 25 hr hitter or 30, he will never be anything more than a passable starting option. However since he has already shown that kind of power vs big league pitching and we have no other options I would definitely hold him for now.
5) Diaz I don't know. Defensively not good but shows flashes of plus defense with his big arm. I don't know. If he hits he should be ok. But again, nothing too good.
So I'd replace three-fifths of the infield immediately, and consider Bell a tenuous placeholder at 1b until a true 1bman can be found or he improves his defense. Defensive improvement may still be possible from him since he was an outfielder before switching.
When your infield stinks this bad, it's tough to build a good team
The infield is historically bad. I saw on Bucs Dugout that Brian Cartwright ran numbers on infield defense since the advent of fielding measures (not sure which one). Out of 320 infields ranked the current Pirates team comes in at 320. The main measure is ability to turn ground balls into outs.
1. Some elite talent. Preferably in the starting rotation. Obviously with current ownership unwilling to take on the expense of an established top pitcher through free agency or trade that will require one of our plethora of young starters to step up. Taillon, Musgrove, Glasnow and Keller would seem to be the candidates with the type of pedigree needed, but of course there are no guarantees. The remarkable success Gerrit Cole has had after arriving in Houston doesn't give me the greatest confidence that the Pirates have the right management and coaching personnel to develop young pitchers to their full potential but they desperately need to.
2. Better defense. The Pirates are bad defensively. Only Marte gives us a plus defender in CF. Combine that with a young pitching staff and you have a formula for disaster. Our young pitchers who need to build confidence in order to attain consistency on the mound are being undermined by defenders extending innings and pitch counts instead of being bailed out of jams.
Bell at 1B and Moran at 3B are pylons. Neither is good enough offensively at this point to say they should be fixtures at those positions. Diaz at C (while Cervelli's future at C is uncertain) is raking offensively which is great, but his defensive miscues are too frequent to ignore and his pitch framing has been roundly criticized which is an additional liability that a young pitching staff shouldn't have to deal with. He may be the next Mickey Tettleton, but even with Mickey's great bat he only averaged about 70 games caught per year in his career. Polanco has the power we've been looking for from a corner outfielder but his glove has always been frustratingly inconsistent at best. Dickerson and Meadows are decent defensively, but lack Polanco's power. The mostly reliable Mercer and Harrison will be gone by the start of next season, and their replacements at 2B and SS need to have better than average MLB gloves to help counterbalance the two corner infield positions. Are Moroff or The Kevins capable when what is really needed is Maz and Ozzie Smith? Kang at SS? Surely not because he most certainly would not be a plus defender at that position. Put him where he belongs at 3B where he is a plus defender.
3. A better field manager. Clint Hurdle has become an impediment to winning. His inexplicable strategies and personnel decisions have confused and angered players. His infuriatingly nonchalant attitude about losing is the antithesis of what young players should be seeing in a leader or role model. He needed to walk the plank yesterday.
I agree with all 3, but would much rather have elite positional talent than pitching. We have decent pitching talent already (being killed by the fielder's). What we don't have are position players worth a d@mn.
This is one of the worst infields I've ever seen. JHay has tanked defensively this year, mercer is bad. Moran and Bell are atrocious and Diaz is also bad. Combine that with our pitching staff being unable to field and it's a total disaster. Our inability to turn infield groundballs into outs is historically bad so far. This is a historically bad infield defense, the worst in baseball. The worst I've ever seen put on a Pirates uniform, but I've only seen teams since the late 80s.
In my opinion:
1) mercer and Jhay need moved for anything. Newman and Kramer may not be any better offensively, but they aren't going to be worse overall.
2) Moran has no future likely as much of anything, but certainly not future as a starting 3bman. He's not a good hitter either, and is platooning. Kang needs to get his wrist healthy. I would play Freese over Moran regularly moving forward. He shouldn't be on the field much, unless he can field 1b. If you can get anything for Moran, I'd trade him now. No future.
3). Bell has no future as a starting 1bman. His defense is woeful and even if he gets back to 25 hr hitter or 30, he will never be anything more than a passable starting option. However since he has already shown that kind of power vs big league pitching and we have no other options I would definitely hold him for now.
5) Diaz I don't know. Defensively not good but shows flashes of plus defense with his big arm. I don't know. If he hits he should be ok. But again, nothing too good.
So I'd replace three-fifths of the infield immediately, and consider Bell a tenuous placeholder at 1b until a true 1bman can be found or he improves his defense. Defensive improvement may still be possible from him since he was an outfielder before switching.
When your infield stinks this bad, it's tough to build a good team
The infield is historically bad. I saw on Bucs Dugout that Brian Cartwright ran numbers on infield defense since the advent of fielding measures (not sure which one). Out of 320 infields ranked the current Pirates team comes in at 320. The main measure is ability to turn ground balls into outs.
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
I couldn't agree more with the comments on upgrading the infield defense. You can't begin to assess pitchers until you have a decent defense.
-
maher.timothy20@gm
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
7072686E781D0 wrote: I couldn't agree more with the comments on upgrading the infield defense. You can't begin to assess pitchers until you have a decent defense.
Right, and not just defense, but offense. Next year I'd love to see Kang at 3B, Player X to be named later, either via free agency or trade, at SS or 2B, and then Kramer/Newman at the other position.
I'm fine with Bell at 1B.
Right, and not just defense, but offense. Next year I'd love to see Kang at 3B, Player X to be named later, either via free agency or trade, at SS or 2B, and then Kramer/Newman at the other position.
I'm fine with Bell at 1B.
10 Random Thoughts at the Break
0B3628252A202B092136272120440 wrote: The last few games have given us a glimpse of what “the best outfield in baseball” was projected to look like. Frankly, it looked like the best OF in baseball, Devastating.
It raises intriguing possibilities. Building a contending team around Dickerson, Marte and Polanco makes all the sense if their recent play indicates they are finally maturing into the talent we always hoped for. Trading Meadows should bring some good pieces back.
I haven’t checked contract status, but if we could sign Dickerson for four years and actually keep he and Marte and Polanco for at least three years, i’d trade Meadows.
Would $25M a year cover the three outfielders? The Pirates should be able to spend that amount of money.
I like the premise, but think it’s a bit risky to build around those three right now. Polanco has a history of streaks and this could come crashing down anytime. Dickerson is a professional hitter and I would like to keep him around, but he might not be a core pillar.
I also think Jason Martin could force his way into the picture next year, which would make marte expendable it the Pirates were to fall out of contention next season. Seems like a fluid situation to me and the more options the better, I think they need to get their infield sorted out ASAP though
Nope no way, I'm building around Polanco yet. His big adjustment is moving off the plate, I don't think that's sustainable. The swing is still long, he will get hot and then disappear for long stretches. No way I trade Meadows. As good as Polanco's hot streaks are, I would try and fleece someone into taking him now. Meadows goes into RF with Martin and Luplow as 4th and 5th OF's.
It raises intriguing possibilities. Building a contending team around Dickerson, Marte and Polanco makes all the sense if their recent play indicates they are finally maturing into the talent we always hoped for. Trading Meadows should bring some good pieces back.
I haven’t checked contract status, but if we could sign Dickerson for four years and actually keep he and Marte and Polanco for at least three years, i’d trade Meadows.
Would $25M a year cover the three outfielders? The Pirates should be able to spend that amount of money.
I like the premise, but think it’s a bit risky to build around those three right now. Polanco has a history of streaks and this could come crashing down anytime. Dickerson is a professional hitter and I would like to keep him around, but he might not be a core pillar.
I also think Jason Martin could force his way into the picture next year, which would make marte expendable it the Pirates were to fall out of contention next season. Seems like a fluid situation to me and the more options the better, I think they need to get their infield sorted out ASAP though
Nope no way, I'm building around Polanco yet. His big adjustment is moving off the plate, I don't think that's sustainable. The swing is still long, he will get hot and then disappear for long stretches. No way I trade Meadows. As good as Polanco's hot streaks are, I would try and fleece someone into taking him now. Meadows goes into RF with Martin and Luplow as 4th and 5th OF's.