784B5756555D6B564D514A4D5C5057390 wrote: Young guys they more or less gave away:
c: Brian Harper
1b: George Sisler
2b: Willie Randolph
3b: Don Money
ss: Joe Cronin
rf: Jay Buhner
cf: Gus Bell
lf: Jose Bautista
lhp: Wilbur Wood
rhp: Claude Passeau
rp: Tim Burke
They didn't give Sisler away. They never had him. Sisler's contract with Pittsburgh at age 17 was voided and he began his career with the Browns. Wilbur Wood was a AAAA pitcher with the Pirates who had the great fortune to be traded to the White Sox where Hoyt Wilhelm turned him into a knuckleball specialist. Had the Pirates not traded Wood to the White Sox, he likely would have washed out of MLB very quickly. But another LHP they should have kept for a successful career was Woodie Fryman.
Player To Be Named Later
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Player To Be Named Later
Donn Clendenon was left open to be taken by the Mets. Back then, somebody had to go, so....that was a loss.
-
Bobster21
Player To Be Named Later
1C293E3E350C3E3E35323E5B0 wrote: Donn Clendenon was left open to be taken by the Mets. Back then, somebody had to go, so....that was a loss.
Not at all the same thing. Clendenon was age 32 and an 8 year veteran. There was an expansion draft and each team could only protect so many players. Robertson and Oliver were ready to begin their careers and Clendenon was on the down side of his. So it would have made no sense to protect Clendenon and lose Oliver or Robertson. they also lost Mota, McBean and Wills in that expansion draft. All 30 or older. They had a great crop of young players ready to take over; Oliver, Robertson, Hebner, Patek, Sanguillen, Cash, Stennett, Moose, Ellis, Walker. And the Pirates obviously made the right call with the expansion draft. 2 years after the draft they won the WS.
Not at all the same thing. Clendenon was age 32 and an 8 year veteran. There was an expansion draft and each team could only protect so many players. Robertson and Oliver were ready to begin their careers and Clendenon was on the down side of his. So it would have made no sense to protect Clendenon and lose Oliver or Robertson. they also lost Mota, McBean and Wills in that expansion draft. All 30 or older. They had a great crop of young players ready to take over; Oliver, Robertson, Hebner, Patek, Sanguillen, Cash, Stennett, Moose, Ellis, Walker. And the Pirates obviously made the right call with the expansion draft. 2 years after the draft they won the WS.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Player To Be Named Later
I know. Wasn't voluntary like the others. But, we still lost the guy.
-
johnfluharty
Player To Be Named Later
1124333338013333383F33560 wrote: There was no indication at that time that either Glasnow or Meadows would develop to what they were, so that part's questionable. Neither was setting any worlds on fire.
And, if the goal was to go for it right then and there, how many care about the long term?
That trade led to so many questions about value and our development that it causes PTSD- Past Trade Suckling Decision.
I liked the aggressiveness, but in no way do I think that was made to appease fans. It was an overpay; a poor decision and then some. We were in a bidding war for Archer- one that we lost.....by "winning."
(((
We'll see more, but we'll also see our share of good ones. We'll feel that sting a while longer, unfortunately.
I just think even if he'd had a career year we wouldn't have made the playoffs, so it was a bad deal even in concept.
And, if the goal was to go for it right then and there, how many care about the long term?
That trade led to so many questions about value and our development that it causes PTSD- Past Trade Suckling Decision.
I liked the aggressiveness, but in no way do I think that was made to appease fans. It was an overpay; a poor decision and then some. We were in a bidding war for Archer- one that we lost.....by "winning."
(((We'll see more, but we'll also see our share of good ones. We'll feel that sting a while longer, unfortunately.
I just think even if he'd had a career year we wouldn't have made the playoffs, so it was a bad deal even in concept.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Player To Be Named Later
To me, that was a shining example of The Fallacy Of The Second Wild Card System" in action.
At the beginning of every season, 25 clubs think they have some chance......maybe five have no chance.
Stays that way until July. Then, things start to sort out. In reality, maybe 15 to 20 have a true chance.
There we were, not strong enough, in my opinion, but....somehow, we were only a few games out.
If it was me, I would have passed. But, people would say that I was pessimistic.
That's why I wasn't as critical of it as some were on our old message board. I was happy to see us at least try to win. In no way did I think that one deal would have been enough to serious playoff damage that season.
It's not that I was banging Glasnow or Meadows. It's just that I wasn't completely sold on Archer....or, the team as a whole.
At the beginning of every season, 25 clubs think they have some chance......maybe five have no chance.
Stays that way until July. Then, things start to sort out. In reality, maybe 15 to 20 have a true chance.
There we were, not strong enough, in my opinion, but....somehow, we were only a few games out.
If it was me, I would have passed. But, people would say that I was pessimistic.
That's why I wasn't as critical of it as some were on our old message board. I was happy to see us at least try to win. In no way did I think that one deal would have been enough to serious playoff damage that season.
It's not that I was banging Glasnow or Meadows. It's just that I wasn't completely sold on Archer....or, the team as a whole.
-
Bobster21
Player To Be Named Later
655047474C7547474C4B47220 wrote: To me, that was a shining example of The Fallacy Of The Second Wild Card System" in action.
At the beginning of every season, 25 clubs think they have some chance......maybe five have no chance.
Stays that way until July. Then, things start to sort out. In reality, maybe 15 to 20 have a true chance.
There we were, not strong enough, in my opinion, but....somehow, we were only a few games out.
If it was me, I would have passed. But, people would say that I was pessimistic.
That's why I wasn't as critical of it as some were on our old message board. I was happy to see us at least try to win. In no way did I think that one deal would have been enough to serious playoff damage that season.
It's not that I was banging Glasnow or Meadows. It's just that I wasn't completely sold on Archer....or, the team as a whole.
I agree with that. MLB designed the 2 WC system so that fans of more teams could feel invested in post season chases. Two weeks before the Archer trade on 7/31 the Pirates were below .500. By 7/31 they had climbed to 56-52 and that was good enough to be only 3 games out of the 2nd WC spot. But even so, there were still 3 other teams ahead of them vying for that same spot. And it's a pretty tall order for team that's only 56-52 to leapfrog over 3 other teams and then have a long run in the post season.
It makes it fun for the fans to still have an interest in the pennant race despite being only 56-52 on August 1st. But team officials need to keep a sense of reality as to the real expectations for their team.
The trade itself was bad because Archer was having a career worst season after declining in each of the previous 2 years. So he didn't seem like the guy who would give the Pirates the boost they would need to make it to the post season. It could even be argued that they may have won more games by putting Meadows in the OF everyday than by putting the declining Archer in the rotation every 5th day. But more importantly, at a modest 56-52 with 3 other teams closer to the 2nd WC spot, the Pirates just weren't serious contenders even if the fans were excited about the 2nd WC chase.
At the beginning of every season, 25 clubs think they have some chance......maybe five have no chance.
Stays that way until July. Then, things start to sort out. In reality, maybe 15 to 20 have a true chance.
There we were, not strong enough, in my opinion, but....somehow, we were only a few games out.
If it was me, I would have passed. But, people would say that I was pessimistic.
That's why I wasn't as critical of it as some were on our old message board. I was happy to see us at least try to win. In no way did I think that one deal would have been enough to serious playoff damage that season.
It's not that I was banging Glasnow or Meadows. It's just that I wasn't completely sold on Archer....or, the team as a whole.
I agree with that. MLB designed the 2 WC system so that fans of more teams could feel invested in post season chases. Two weeks before the Archer trade on 7/31 the Pirates were below .500. By 7/31 they had climbed to 56-52 and that was good enough to be only 3 games out of the 2nd WC spot. But even so, there were still 3 other teams ahead of them vying for that same spot. And it's a pretty tall order for team that's only 56-52 to leapfrog over 3 other teams and then have a long run in the post season.
It makes it fun for the fans to still have an interest in the pennant race despite being only 56-52 on August 1st. But team officials need to keep a sense of reality as to the real expectations for their team.
The trade itself was bad because Archer was having a career worst season after declining in each of the previous 2 years. So he didn't seem like the guy who would give the Pirates the boost they would need to make it to the post season. It could even be argued that they may have won more games by putting Meadows in the OF everyday than by putting the declining Archer in the rotation every 5th day. But more importantly, at a modest 56-52 with 3 other teams closer to the 2nd WC spot, the Pirates just weren't serious contenders even if the fans were excited about the 2nd WC chase.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Player To Be Named Later
Agree with all.
I can think of only one good thing about that deal.
Made us forget Bay For Andy LaRoche.
I can think of only one good thing about that deal.
Made us forget Bay For Andy LaRoche.
-
johnfluharty
Player To Be Named Later
I don't mind that they made a trade to try and upgrade the team just as a kind of what if but they should have acquired someone who was not in a serious decline.