After seeing Nova and Kuhl get whiplash watching the Nats' pound two-seamers, I decided to research pitch type % by a few Bucs and a couple recent grads -- Gerrit Cole and Charlie Morton.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
Too much two seam?
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skinnyhorse
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Too much two seam?
67604C5B4D2E0 wrote: After seeing Nova and Kuhl get whiplash watching the Nats' pound two-seamers, I decided to research pitch type % by a few Bucs and a couple recent grads -- Gerrit Cole and Charlie Morton.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
interesting I like it.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
interesting I like it.
Too much two seam?
71765A4D5B380 wrote: After seeing Nova and Kuhl get whiplash watching the Nats' pound two-seamers, I decided to research pitch type % by a few Bucs and a couple recent grads -- Gerrit Cole and Charlie Morton.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
Very nice post.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
Very nice post.
Too much two seam?
10173B2C3A590 wrote: After seeing Nova and Kuhl get whiplash watching the Nats' pound two-seamers, I decided to research pitch type % by a few Bucs and a couple recent grads -- Gerrit Cole and Charlie Morton.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
Good stuff. I agree...Cole and Morton were mishandled, moreso Cole than Morton. The question I have though is this...why didn't anyone catch this when they were here? Also, with Morton, he was all too happy to be regarded as a sinker baller. It was the Pirates who made him throw three quarters, a lot of two-seamers, and get the moniker "Ground Chuck." Nobody complained. Russell Martin said he was a "spitting image" of Roy Halladay.
And it's not like Morton never had his moments. He had a couple back to back CGs against the Reds, I believe. He went toe to toe against Wacha in Game 4 of the 2013 NLDS and more than held his own (Bucs should have won that game, as an aside).
It stinks to watch former Buccos dominate for another team, especially when they could still be doing that here. Most people were all too happy to salary dump Morton to the Phillies. Cole underwhelmed. I'd love to have both of them still be in our rotation. But, no sense crying over spilled milk, as they say. What I'm much more worried about is making sure the same doesn't happen to Kuhl, Brault, Glasnow, and Taillon. Kuhl and Brault kind of remind me of Morton...Glasnow and Taillon remind me of Cole, at least in terms of talent and upside.
The second Cole line is his 2017 season with the Bucs, and the 2nd Morton line is his 2015 season here. 4S is four-seam fastball, 2S is two-seam, curve, slider, change-up, other:
4S 2S CV SL CH Cut/Split
Kuhl 10% 52 12 18 8
Taillon 37 31 22 0 10
Nova 23 47 19 0 10 1
Cole 48 5 18 23 6
Cole(17) 42 18 12 17 11
Morton 28 29 28 0 1 14
Morton(15) 5 63 24 0 0 10
You can see the high concentration of two-seamers thrown by the Bucs this year. It is also apparent the movement away from the 2S by Cole and Morton. Cole and Morton are having all-star type starts in 2018:
ERA WHIP K/9
Cole 18 1.42 .69 13.7
Cole 17 4.26 1.28 8.7
Morton 18 1.72 .98 11.0
Morton 15 4.81 1.38 6.7
I watched Morton against the Yanks this week and he looked great. I don’t think he threw 29% 2S that night. The announcers said the Astros want control and velocity and emphasize the 4S fastball. These numbers are a small sample, and are put forth by me to question if it is time to challenge the two-seam model? Could Kuhl, Taillon, and even Nova fare better with a different pitch-type allocation and emphasis?
Good stuff. I agree...Cole and Morton were mishandled, moreso Cole than Morton. The question I have though is this...why didn't anyone catch this when they were here? Also, with Morton, he was all too happy to be regarded as a sinker baller. It was the Pirates who made him throw three quarters, a lot of two-seamers, and get the moniker "Ground Chuck." Nobody complained. Russell Martin said he was a "spitting image" of Roy Halladay.
And it's not like Morton never had his moments. He had a couple back to back CGs against the Reds, I believe. He went toe to toe against Wacha in Game 4 of the 2013 NLDS and more than held his own (Bucs should have won that game, as an aside).
It stinks to watch former Buccos dominate for another team, especially when they could still be doing that here. Most people were all too happy to salary dump Morton to the Phillies. Cole underwhelmed. I'd love to have both of them still be in our rotation. But, no sense crying over spilled milk, as they say. What I'm much more worried about is making sure the same doesn't happen to Kuhl, Brault, Glasnow, and Taillon. Kuhl and Brault kind of remind me of Morton...Glasnow and Taillon remind me of Cole, at least in terms of talent and upside.
Too much two seam?
I was at Taillon's start against the Nats and it seemed like he was throwing 90% fastballs. The Nats' scoreboard didn't differentiate between two or four seam fastballs (and I wasn't paying close enough attention to the MPH), but it seemed like he was throwing way too many fastballs to be successful as a starting pitcher in the major leagues. He would go entire innings it seemed without throwing a breaking ball. Aside from Bryce Harper, I think the Nats started to figure it out relatively quickly.
I read in ST that the Astros were just gonna let Cole be Cole, as opposed to the fastball heavy approach the Pirates took with him. It certainly seems to be working.
I think we should take the training wheels off of Taillon and let him pitch with his full arsenal. Work the curveball into the mix earlier in the game and try to develop the change into a solid pitch.
I read in ST that the Astros were just gonna let Cole be Cole, as opposed to the fastball heavy approach the Pirates took with him. It certainly seems to be working.
I think we should take the training wheels off of Taillon and let him pitch with his full arsenal. Work the curveball into the mix earlier in the game and try to develop the change into a solid pitch.
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Bobster21
Too much two seam?
66455050514C72350 wrote: I was at Taillon's start against the Nats and it seemed like he was throwing 90% fastballs. The Nats' scoreboard didn't differentiate between two or four seam fastballs (and I wasn't paying close enough attention to the MPH), but it seemed like he was throwing way too many fastballs to be successful as a starting pitcher in the major leagues. He would go entire innings it seemed without throwing a breaking ball. Aside from Bryce Harper, I think the Nats started to figure it out relatively quickly.
I read in ST that the Astros were just gonna let Cole be Cole, as opposed to the fastball heavy approach the Pirates took with him. It certainly seems to be working.
I think we should take the training wheels off of Taillon and let him pitch with his full arsenal. Work the curveball into the mix earlier in the game and try to develop the change into a solid pitch.
The Cubs took the same approach when they acquired Arrieta from the Orioles, who arrived with a career 5.46 ERA.
I read in ST that the Astros were just gonna let Cole be Cole, as opposed to the fastball heavy approach the Pirates took with him. It certainly seems to be working.
I think we should take the training wheels off of Taillon and let him pitch with his full arsenal. Work the curveball into the mix earlier in the game and try to develop the change into a solid pitch.
The Cubs took the same approach when they acquired Arrieta from the Orioles, who arrived with a career 5.46 ERA.
Too much two seam?
Well there is a sense in worrying about it when evidence is glaring that having "ground chuck" throw 3/4 and 70% 2-seamers led to his control issues. The Searage myth was always irrational and evidence mounted against the myth 2 years ago.
If we want to be an analytical organization, then you cannot ignore the analytics when they're saying we must stop trying to put all the pitchers into the same round-hole.
It's talking out of two sides of the mouth. We're analytical, but then rigid in philosophy. lol Makes no sense at all. Perhaps the philosophy should be that whatever you BEST pitch is, throw it more often? Whatever you worst pitch is, throw it less often? ****in' groundbreaking stuff!
If we want to be an analytical organization, then you cannot ignore the analytics when they're saying we must stop trying to put all the pitchers into the same round-hole.
It's talking out of two sides of the mouth. We're analytical, but then rigid in philosophy. lol Makes no sense at all. Perhaps the philosophy should be that whatever you BEST pitch is, throw it more often? Whatever you worst pitch is, throw it less often? ****in' groundbreaking stuff!
Too much two seam?
:o535A52434D370 wrote: Well there is a sense in worrying about it when evidence is glaring that having "ground chuck" throw 3/4 and 70% 2-seamers led to his control issues. The Searage myth was always irrational and evidence mounted against the myth 2 years ago. If we want to be an analytical organization, then you cannot ignore the analytics when they're saying we must stop trying to put all the pitchers into the same round-hole.
It's talking out of two sides of the mouth. We're analytical, but then rigid in philosophy. lol Makes no sense at all. Perhaps the philosophy should be that whatever you BEST pitch is, throw it more often? Whatever you worst pitch is, throw it less often? ****in' groundbreaking stuff!
Nonsense
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Too much two seam?
With that said, you can't ignore the success they had with their approach. They were one of the best teams in a three year period. Teams actually followed their shifting and groundball theory too.
Too much two seam?
3D363E3237362D686E192038313636773A36590 wrote: With that said, you can't ignore the success they had with their approach. They were one of the best teams in a three year period. Teams actually followed their shifting and groundball theory too.
Just because AJ and Liriano took to the 2-seam fastball well doesn't mean that it was the right pitch for Morton or Cole. Those two guys had awesome 2-seamers, as well as secondary pitches. It also doesn't mean it's the best pitch for Taillon to be throwing so often either or Chad Kuhl.
The "fastball academy" has produced two top of the rotation starters... for the Houston Astros, after they expressedly told them to STOP. How does that make the org feel? Hopefully, and I know I'm stretching here, it makes them feel stupid and embarrassed. I doubt it does, but hopefully!
I hate pitching to contact. I've been blathering about it for years and finally glad after years of doing it there appears to be some traction with getting it stopped. I'm definitely not against throwing fastballs. Guys like Nova have to throw it because their secondary stuff is lousy. I think that's why Nova is a back of the rotation guy, when the dust settles, he doesn't have enough quality mix. There's nothing wrong with that. However, we have pitchers who have + offspeed stuff, unlike Nova, who don't need to grind away with fastball after fastball just asking ML hitters to put wood on it.
The evidence is really quite mountainous at this point that we're taking starting pitchers with good "stuff" and making them worse than they otherwise would be by forcing fastballs onto them. How on earth could baseball people not be questioning how Cole's K/9 numbers weren't higher with the arsenal and arm that he had???
We ought to start calling ourselves the "back of the rotation starter academy" ;D.
Just because AJ and Liriano took to the 2-seam fastball well doesn't mean that it was the right pitch for Morton or Cole. Those two guys had awesome 2-seamers, as well as secondary pitches. It also doesn't mean it's the best pitch for Taillon to be throwing so often either or Chad Kuhl.
The "fastball academy" has produced two top of the rotation starters... for the Houston Astros, after they expressedly told them to STOP. How does that make the org feel? Hopefully, and I know I'm stretching here, it makes them feel stupid and embarrassed. I doubt it does, but hopefully!
I hate pitching to contact. I've been blathering about it for years and finally glad after years of doing it there appears to be some traction with getting it stopped. I'm definitely not against throwing fastballs. Guys like Nova have to throw it because their secondary stuff is lousy. I think that's why Nova is a back of the rotation guy, when the dust settles, he doesn't have enough quality mix. There's nothing wrong with that. However, we have pitchers who have + offspeed stuff, unlike Nova, who don't need to grind away with fastball after fastball just asking ML hitters to put wood on it.
The evidence is really quite mountainous at this point that we're taking starting pitchers with good "stuff" and making them worse than they otherwise would be by forcing fastballs onto them. How on earth could baseball people not be questioning how Cole's K/9 numbers weren't higher with the arsenal and arm that he had???
We ought to start calling ourselves the "back of the rotation starter academy" ;D.