Gerrit Cole
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Gerrit Cole
I wish OBN allowed us to like posts.
-
Bobster21
Gerrit Cole
634544534555260 wrote: I wish OBN allowed us to like posts.
Me too. But apparently, that's not possible with this format.
Me too. But apparently, that's not possible with this format.
-
Bobster21
Gerrit Cole
191112253316313E500 wrote: Theres a ton of truth in this thread. A ton. The Pirates were at the forefront of analytics six years ago. But as has been said, the league caught up. But in addition to catching up, most teams in the league are still willing to augment weaknesses from outside of the organization. Look at the LDS teams:
The Twins signed Nelson Cruz. The Yankees went out and got Chapman and Stanton. The Astros went and got Cole and Verlander. The Rays got Morton, Glasnow, and Meadows.
Over on the NL side, the Braves went out and got Josh Donaldson and Dallas Keuchel. The Cards traded for Ozuna and Goldschmidt. Even though the Nats let Harper go, they signed Scherzer as an FA and have already made a competitive offer to Rendon, rather than just accepting that he'll walk at the end of the year.
It's disgusting what this organization has done to baseball in Pittsburgh. Even if they WANTED to bring a big player in, could they do it? Cole left and immediately trashed the organization. Our All-Star closer was having sex with a child. There's multiple reports of fighting in the clubhouse.
This is why I say the whole thing needs to be torn down. Trade everyone. Including Newman, Bell, and Reynolds. Start completely over. Trade O'Neil Cruz, Hayes, Keller, Taillon, the whole lot. Nutting needs to wake up and realize that even if NH and FC are good guys, they've allowed the organization to get into this sad state. Any additions that happen this offseason are purely cosmetic. They're putting a new addition on a home with a cracked foundation, with a basement that floods every time it rains, a leaky roof, and is rat-infested. The only solution is to tear down the house and rebuild. From the ground up.
I'll actually be disappointed if Josh Bell is wearing a Pirates uniform on Opening Day 2020. Make the hard decision, go all-in on a rebuild. Lose 110 games next year, and make 2022 a target of being competitive, with playoffs a realistic goal by 2024-2025.
The problem I see is that any plan for being competitive or being a playoff team requires more than just hoping enough prospects are ready by a certain year. Building from within is essential but no team will field a great team just by having every hole filled with an inexpensive young prospect. You noted all the veteran acquisitions contending teams have recently made. Ideally, you develop a solid core and then spend for that productive veteran or 2 who can put the team over the hump. But that's where the Pirates substitute dumpster diving for making a few key additions to a young core. The commitment from the top simply isn't there.
Oh, I don't disagree. I'm not saying that will happen. It most likely won't. But, I'm hoping we can do Step 1 before we get to Step 2.
I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing with you. I just find it depressing that even the best laid plans for rebuilding will likely eventually run into a wall when it comes time to add anything substantial that doesn't come cheap.
The Twins signed Nelson Cruz. The Yankees went out and got Chapman and Stanton. The Astros went and got Cole and Verlander. The Rays got Morton, Glasnow, and Meadows.
Over on the NL side, the Braves went out and got Josh Donaldson and Dallas Keuchel. The Cards traded for Ozuna and Goldschmidt. Even though the Nats let Harper go, they signed Scherzer as an FA and have already made a competitive offer to Rendon, rather than just accepting that he'll walk at the end of the year.
It's disgusting what this organization has done to baseball in Pittsburgh. Even if they WANTED to bring a big player in, could they do it? Cole left and immediately trashed the organization. Our All-Star closer was having sex with a child. There's multiple reports of fighting in the clubhouse.
This is why I say the whole thing needs to be torn down. Trade everyone. Including Newman, Bell, and Reynolds. Start completely over. Trade O'Neil Cruz, Hayes, Keller, Taillon, the whole lot. Nutting needs to wake up and realize that even if NH and FC are good guys, they've allowed the organization to get into this sad state. Any additions that happen this offseason are purely cosmetic. They're putting a new addition on a home with a cracked foundation, with a basement that floods every time it rains, a leaky roof, and is rat-infested. The only solution is to tear down the house and rebuild. From the ground up.
I'll actually be disappointed if Josh Bell is wearing a Pirates uniform on Opening Day 2020. Make the hard decision, go all-in on a rebuild. Lose 110 games next year, and make 2022 a target of being competitive, with playoffs a realistic goal by 2024-2025.
The problem I see is that any plan for being competitive or being a playoff team requires more than just hoping enough prospects are ready by a certain year. Building from within is essential but no team will field a great team just by having every hole filled with an inexpensive young prospect. You noted all the veteran acquisitions contending teams have recently made. Ideally, you develop a solid core and then spend for that productive veteran or 2 who can put the team over the hump. But that's where the Pirates substitute dumpster diving for making a few key additions to a young core. The commitment from the top simply isn't there.
Oh, I don't disagree. I'm not saying that will happen. It most likely won't. But, I'm hoping we can do Step 1 before we get to Step 2.
I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing with you. I just find it depressing that even the best laid plans for rebuilding will likely eventually run into a wall when it comes time to add anything substantial that doesn't come cheap.
Gerrit Cole
One of the shows on the fan last week was talking about the new TV deal. They were playing the theoretical game suggesting that it added an extra $40 million or so to payroll.
So, if the Pirates could jump payroll to $115 million next year, would that be enough flexibility to not burn it down? Could they sign a couple of legit pitchers (not Cole) and a relief pitcher to make a big difference?
So, if the Pirates could jump payroll to $115 million next year, would that be enough flexibility to not burn it down? Could they sign a couple of legit pitchers (not Cole) and a relief pitcher to make a big difference?
Gerrit Cole
That must have been an interesting game. Did they say how much the TV contract would have to be to allow 40 MM or so to trickle down to payroll?
Gerrit Cole
here are projections from MLB Trade Rumors on Pirate arbitration candidates:
Keone Kela – $3.4MM
Michael Feliz – $1.2MM
Jameson Taillon – $2.3MM
Elias Diaz – $1.4MM
Chad Kuhl – $1.4MM
Adam Frazier – $3.2MM
Joe Musgrove – $3.4MM
Josh Bell – $5.9MM
Trevor Williams – $3.0MM
Erik Gonzalez – $800K
If I added correctly that is 25 million for 10 players.
Add 11.5 for Starling Marte and 9 million for Chris Archer.
That totals 20.5 for total of 45.5 million for 12 players. Other 14 players (doesn't roster go to 26 next season at about 600k each) is 8.4 million for total of
53.9 million.
There should be a lot of financial flexibility for next year's payroll.
However, I don't think there are many free agents the Pirates would want to sign among pitchers out there.
I would like to get catching and third base help in addition to pitching.
May want to go for Travis d’Arnaud at catcher and as a pipe dream Josh Donaldson for two years and $50 million.
Then trade Moran, Bell and/or Marte for pitching.
Gerrit Cole
7F6246444A2F0 wrote: One of the shows on the fan last week was talking about the new TV deal. They were playing the theoretical game suggesting that it added an extra $40 million or so to payroll.
So, if the Pirates could jump payroll to $115 million next year, would that be enough flexibility to not burn it down? Could they sign a couple of legit pitchers (not Cole) and a relief pitcher to make a big difference?
Personally, I don't think so. Now, hypothetically speaking, if they do this right and actually reinvest in the team in 2021 and beyond, I'd be all for that. Like Bobster and I were discussing above, I think that's step 2. I don't think that will happen. But, I'm more focused on step 1, which I really believe is "burn it down." Even if we were the Yankees or Dodgers, we have so many holes, I don't even know where to begin. Off the top of my head in order of importance:
1. #1-3 starters. Kuhl, Archer, Williams, Musgrove, Keller, Brault are all a collection of 4-5 starters. Taillon could have potentially been a #2-3. But he's out next year. Keller has potential, but I didn't see much of it this year.
2. Catcher
3. Third base
4. Right field
5. Second base
6. Center field if Marte is traded
7. Back end of the bullpen after we salary dumped Vazquez to the State Penitentiary slow pitch softball team (yes, that's tongue-in-cheek, but you get the idea). Maybe if Burdi and Santana come back, Kela doesn't spend the entire year injured or suspended, and Crick remembers where the strike zone is, we'll be ok here, but that's trying to coddle something together with chicken wire and duct tape.
We haven't even begun talking about the bench yet. I'm not convinced Reynolds and/or Newman didn't have a career year as a rookie. Ditto for Bell last year having a career year. If it were me, I'd sell high on those three.
I honestly don't care if they don't win a game next year. For trying to build from within, we're actually a pretty old team, with no superstar prospects in the pipeline. We've got some good players coming up, potentially, like Hayes, Cruz, Tucker, and Keller. But none of those guys are impact players that will push a team over the top. I'm not talking a Mike Trout, but do you really envision any of those guys being perennial All-Stars? I don't. nice players, yes. But the kinds of guys you build around when you're trying to win 75 games, not 95.
In short, no infusion of money is going to change things for next year. Next year might be the worst year the Pirates have had in quite awhile, and that's saying something. My early prediction...59-103 and I'm being generous. We're going to be BAD...there's not a player alive who could turn next year's PBC into a pennant contender.
Blow. It. Up.
So, if the Pirates could jump payroll to $115 million next year, would that be enough flexibility to not burn it down? Could they sign a couple of legit pitchers (not Cole) and a relief pitcher to make a big difference?
Personally, I don't think so. Now, hypothetically speaking, if they do this right and actually reinvest in the team in 2021 and beyond, I'd be all for that. Like Bobster and I were discussing above, I think that's step 2. I don't think that will happen. But, I'm more focused on step 1, which I really believe is "burn it down." Even if we were the Yankees or Dodgers, we have so many holes, I don't even know where to begin. Off the top of my head in order of importance:
1. #1-3 starters. Kuhl, Archer, Williams, Musgrove, Keller, Brault are all a collection of 4-5 starters. Taillon could have potentially been a #2-3. But he's out next year. Keller has potential, but I didn't see much of it this year.
2. Catcher
3. Third base
4. Right field
5. Second base
6. Center field if Marte is traded
7. Back end of the bullpen after we salary dumped Vazquez to the State Penitentiary slow pitch softball team (yes, that's tongue-in-cheek, but you get the idea). Maybe if Burdi and Santana come back, Kela doesn't spend the entire year injured or suspended, and Crick remembers where the strike zone is, we'll be ok here, but that's trying to coddle something together with chicken wire and duct tape.
We haven't even begun talking about the bench yet. I'm not convinced Reynolds and/or Newman didn't have a career year as a rookie. Ditto for Bell last year having a career year. If it were me, I'd sell high on those three.
I honestly don't care if they don't win a game next year. For trying to build from within, we're actually a pretty old team, with no superstar prospects in the pipeline. We've got some good players coming up, potentially, like Hayes, Cruz, Tucker, and Keller. But none of those guys are impact players that will push a team over the top. I'm not talking a Mike Trout, but do you really envision any of those guys being perennial All-Stars? I don't. nice players, yes. But the kinds of guys you build around when you're trying to win 75 games, not 95.
In short, no infusion of money is going to change things for next year. Next year might be the worst year the Pirates have had in quite awhile, and that's saying something. My early prediction...59-103 and I'm being generous. We're going to be BAD...there's not a player alive who could turn next year's PBC into a pennant contender.
Blow. It. Up.
Gerrit Cole
Funny, before the TV deal came out, I was going to post earlier in this thread that a $40m increase in the budget would still leave the pirates at about 21st in payroll for the league. Say, the Pirates blow almost all of that on two starters, how much does that improve the team? I don't think it would make them a big contender but I think it could make them somewhat competitive.
Gerrit Cole
Considering we got 50 mil in the BAM deal and payroll dropped, if it's a $40 mil TV contract may mean it drops about another 5 million ?