Couldn’t even keep Liriano
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
They should not be looking to trade Marte or Bell. Our team salary is one of the lowest if not the lowest in the league. We have already "blown it up". We need to add major league ball players and get out team salary up to the levels of other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati. The only way I would trade Marte or Bell is for another major league ball player. If some team needs a CF and we need a pitcher then I am OK with it. Marte for Gsellman would be OK. We simply do not need to reduce our team salary any lower unless the only goal is to further enrich Bob Nutting.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
455E53525B5758360 wrote: They should not be looking to trade Marte or Bell. Our team salary is one of the lowest if not the lowest in the league. We have already "blown it up". We need to add major league ball players and get out team salary up to the levels of other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati. The only way I would trade Marte or Bell is for another major league ball player. If some team needs a CF and we need a pitcher then I am OK with it. Marte for Gsellman would be OK. We simply do not need to reduce our team salary any lower unless the only goal is to further enrich Bob Nutting.
With an owner unwilling to purchase good players, and major league and Triple A rosters filled with average players at best, by the time the Pirates are ready to compete again, both Bell and Marte will have been long gone. Best to get something for them now while their values are at their highest. Like you, I want major league-ready players in return.
The team has not been blown up as you stated. For the past four years, Huntington walked the line between tearing the team down completely and going all in to try to win, a recipe that guarantees failure. I'm done with that. BC needs to start from scratch.
With an owner unwilling to purchase good players, and major league and Triple A rosters filled with average players at best, by the time the Pirates are ready to compete again, both Bell and Marte will have been long gone. Best to get something for them now while their values are at their highest. Like you, I want major league-ready players in return.
The team has not been blown up as you stated. For the past four years, Huntington walked the line between tearing the team down completely and going all in to try to win, a recipe that guarantees failure. I'm done with that. BC needs to start from scratch.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
605D434E414B40624A5D4C4A4B2F0 wrote: Farm system is far from barren.
Can you list for me the players in the Pirates minor league system that you believe will be successful major league players within the next four years?
Can you list for me the players in the Pirates minor league system that you believe will be successful major league players within the next four years?
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
352E23222B2728460 wrote: They should not be looking to trade Marte or Bell. Our team salary is one of the lowest if not the lowest in the league. We have already "blown it up". We need to add major league ball players and get out team salary up to the levels of other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati. The only way I would trade Marte or Bell is for another major league ball player. If some team needs a CF and we need a pitcher then I am OK with it. Marte for Gsellman would be OK. We simply do not need to reduce our team salary any lower unless the only goal is to further enrich Bob Nutting.
At this point moving the more proven guys is not about reducing salary, I don't think. I mean, with a couple of likely long seasons ahead where attendance will be down more, it is a secondary benefit for Nutting.
I'm sure we agree that the problem they face is assembling enough talent across the roster to compete for the playoffs. You seem to feel that they should build on the base we have. But I don't believe that they can add enough with FA's or trades to make the roster competitive soon given their limitations. They are 3 SP's - at least one a true TotR guy - from a playoff quality rotation. Keller could become that TotR guy, but probably not this season. At that point, you are at the last season of Marte and probably Bell too. You need a big improvement at C and 3B. Tucker, Newman, and one of Kramer/Frazier are probably enough to hold down the MiF, but you then need a real thumper in RF. That's before we start trying to rebuild the bullpen.
If you try to fix all of that via FA's (too late anyway now) and trades, it will cost a Nutting-sized fortune and empty the farm system for what may be a 1 or 2 year run at most.
I think they could try to rebuild for a run in 2-3 years built around Keller, Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes and maybe Craig with Cruz potentially providing a home-grown thumper in RF. Craig could be supplanted by a prospect (from trade) or supplemented with a platoon partner. The trades of proven guys need to bring in upper level (AA/AAA) SP prospects so that no more than one starter (hopefully a 2-3 a la Burnett) has to be bought on the open market. Oh, yeah. We'll need a real 2-way catcher that can bat 7th and drive in some runs plus a LF/CF with thump. There's a lot of risk given all of the young guys that have to realize their potential together.
The next potential group after that, based on what we have now, is probably led by Priester. So, it's several years away.
At this point moving the more proven guys is not about reducing salary, I don't think. I mean, with a couple of likely long seasons ahead where attendance will be down more, it is a secondary benefit for Nutting.
I'm sure we agree that the problem they face is assembling enough talent across the roster to compete for the playoffs. You seem to feel that they should build on the base we have. But I don't believe that they can add enough with FA's or trades to make the roster competitive soon given their limitations. They are 3 SP's - at least one a true TotR guy - from a playoff quality rotation. Keller could become that TotR guy, but probably not this season. At that point, you are at the last season of Marte and probably Bell too. You need a big improvement at C and 3B. Tucker, Newman, and one of Kramer/Frazier are probably enough to hold down the MiF, but you then need a real thumper in RF. That's before we start trying to rebuild the bullpen.
If you try to fix all of that via FA's (too late anyway now) and trades, it will cost a Nutting-sized fortune and empty the farm system for what may be a 1 or 2 year run at most.
I think they could try to rebuild for a run in 2-3 years built around Keller, Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes and maybe Craig with Cruz potentially providing a home-grown thumper in RF. Craig could be supplanted by a prospect (from trade) or supplemented with a platoon partner. The trades of proven guys need to bring in upper level (AA/AAA) SP prospects so that no more than one starter (hopefully a 2-3 a la Burnett) has to be bought on the open market. Oh, yeah. We'll need a real 2-way catcher that can bat 7th and drive in some runs plus a LF/CF with thump. There's a lot of risk given all of the young guys that have to realize their potential together.
The next potential group after that, based on what we have now, is probably led by Priester. So, it's several years away.
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WildwoodDave
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
I think that the best thing we can do this season is to close our eyes, muffle our eyes and pray the season goes by quickly
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
5740566177777B140 wrote: They should not be looking to trade Marte or Bell. Our team salary is one of the lowest if not the lowest in the league. We have already "blown it up". We need to add major league ball players and get out team salary up to the levels of other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati. The only way I would trade Marte or Bell is for another major league ball player. If some team needs a CF and we need a pitcher then I am OK with it. Marte for Gsellman would be OK. We simply do not need to reduce our team salary any lower unless the only goal is to further enrich Bob Nutting.
At this point moving the more proven guys is not about reducing salary, I don't think. I mean, with a couple of likely long seasons ahead where attendance will be down more, it is a secondary benefit for Nutting.
I'm sure we agree that the problem they face is assembling enough talent across the roster to compete for the playoffs. You seem to feel that they should build on the base we have. But I don't believe that they can add enough with FA's or trades to make the roster competitive soon given their limitations. They are 3 SP's - at least one a true TotR guy - from a playoff quality rotation. Keller could become that TotR guy, but probably not this season. At that point, you are at the last season of Marte and probably Bell too. You need a big improvement at C and 3B. Tucker, Newman, and one of Kramer/Frazier are probably enough to hold down the MiF, but you then need a real thumper in RF. That's before we start trying to rebuild the bullpen.
If you try to fix all of that via FA's (too late anyway now) and trades, it will cost a Nutting-sized fortune and empty the farm system for what may be a 1 or 2 year run at most.
I think they could try to rebuild for a run in 2-3 years built around Keller, Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes and maybe Craig with Cruz potentially providing a home-grown thumper in RF. Craig could be supplanted by a prospect (from trade) or supplemented with a platoon partner. The trades of proven guys need to bring in upper level (AA/AAA) SP prospects so that no more than one starter (hopefully a 2-3 a la Burnett) has to be bought on the open market. Oh, yeah. We'll need a real 2-way catcher that can bat 7th and drive in some runs plus a LF/CF with thump. There's a lot of risk given all of the young guys that have to realize their potential together.
The next potential group after that, based on what we have now, is probably led by Priester. So, it's several years away.
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I don't believe in forecasting which player will be here or not be here in a particular time period. There is no reason that marte could not be resigned to a new contract when he is eligible for FA. Teams do it all the time. Instead of pumping some uncertain future when some mystical core will be in place, I believe that we should add major league ball players right now, we are already one of the lowest team salaries in the league. I understand the economics of baseball, and I am not asking for Nutting to spend Yankees or Red Sox money. I am asking that they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money. And if they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money I fully understand that they may not end up winning the World Series as only 1 team in 30 wins the Series each year. But I don't accept the thinking that says well "we have to blow it up and see what we have' while the team salary is kept artificially low and then when they have a season where they win a few games they immediately flip the PR to "well we do not want to upset the team chemistry" by making any acquisitions.
At this point moving the more proven guys is not about reducing salary, I don't think. I mean, with a couple of likely long seasons ahead where attendance will be down more, it is a secondary benefit for Nutting.
I'm sure we agree that the problem they face is assembling enough talent across the roster to compete for the playoffs. You seem to feel that they should build on the base we have. But I don't believe that they can add enough with FA's or trades to make the roster competitive soon given their limitations. They are 3 SP's - at least one a true TotR guy - from a playoff quality rotation. Keller could become that TotR guy, but probably not this season. At that point, you are at the last season of Marte and probably Bell too. You need a big improvement at C and 3B. Tucker, Newman, and one of Kramer/Frazier are probably enough to hold down the MiF, but you then need a real thumper in RF. That's before we start trying to rebuild the bullpen.
If you try to fix all of that via FA's (too late anyway now) and trades, it will cost a Nutting-sized fortune and empty the farm system for what may be a 1 or 2 year run at most.
I think they could try to rebuild for a run in 2-3 years built around Keller, Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes and maybe Craig with Cruz potentially providing a home-grown thumper in RF. Craig could be supplanted by a prospect (from trade) or supplemented with a platoon partner. The trades of proven guys need to bring in upper level (AA/AAA) SP prospects so that no more than one starter (hopefully a 2-3 a la Burnett) has to be bought on the open market. Oh, yeah. We'll need a real 2-way catcher that can bat 7th and drive in some runs plus a LF/CF with thump. There's a lot of risk given all of the young guys that have to realize their potential together.
The next potential group after that, based on what we have now, is probably led by Priester. So, it's several years away.
---
I don't believe in forecasting which player will be here or not be here in a particular time period. There is no reason that marte could not be resigned to a new contract when he is eligible for FA. Teams do it all the time. Instead of pumping some uncertain future when some mystical core will be in place, I believe that we should add major league ball players right now, we are already one of the lowest team salaries in the league. I understand the economics of baseball, and I am not asking for Nutting to spend Yankees or Red Sox money. I am asking that they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money. And if they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money I fully understand that they may not end up winning the World Series as only 1 team in 30 wins the Series each year. But I don't accept the thinking that says well "we have to blow it up and see what we have' while the team salary is kept artificially low and then when they have a season where they win a few games they immediately flip the PR to "well we do not want to upset the team chemistry" by making any acquisitions.
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
407D636E616B60426A7D6C6A6B0F0 wrote: Farm system is far from barren.
It's not strong. It's subpar to me.
It's not strong. It's subpar to me.
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
5E454849404C432D0 wrote: They should not be looking to trade Marte or Bell. Our team salary is one of the lowest if not the lowest in the league. We have already "blown it up". We need to add major league ball players and get out team salary up to the levels of other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati. The only way I would trade Marte or Bell is for another major league ball player. If some team needs a CF and we need a pitcher then I am OK with it. Marte for Gsellman would be OK. We simply do not need to reduce our team salary any lower unless the only goal is to further enrich Bob Nutting.
It's the same argument that a team that stinks should trade stud closer because having stud closer for a team wins 60-65 games per year is somewhat pointless. Ownership doesn't care, hence the payroll numbers. Nutting blew a huge chance to elevate things after that 96 win season, instead allowed AJB to go; Russ Mart to go; traded Walker for Neise (terrible) and brought in Vogelsong as his best free agent and this came off the heels of a playoff berth and record attendance.
His failure to even bring it up to even 90 million is mind boggling. He doesn't want to. He won't anytime soon. You are going to be relying on a roster of some good vets (Marte, Bell), prospects, suspects and retreads. If that gets you to 65 wins, what's the point of keeping Bell and Marte? Are they alone going to bring fans to the park knowing that the Pirates are a 60-65 win team? Nope. I maintain that Bell should have been traded earlier in the offseason because his value is probably at an all-time high and we won't be able to resign him. I don't trust him in 2020 to come close to his numbers. All you have to do is look at that one big year and then major drop-off; he comes out a blazing early in 2019 and then fell apart the second half. If this is all about prospect and controllable asset grab, then ...
Marte for Gsellman would be terrible. Trading your best asset for a reliever that doesn't close?
It's the same argument that a team that stinks should trade stud closer because having stud closer for a team wins 60-65 games per year is somewhat pointless. Ownership doesn't care, hence the payroll numbers. Nutting blew a huge chance to elevate things after that 96 win season, instead allowed AJB to go; Russ Mart to go; traded Walker for Neise (terrible) and brought in Vogelsong as his best free agent and this came off the heels of a playoff berth and record attendance.
His failure to even bring it up to even 90 million is mind boggling. He doesn't want to. He won't anytime soon. You are going to be relying on a roster of some good vets (Marte, Bell), prospects, suspects and retreads. If that gets you to 65 wins, what's the point of keeping Bell and Marte? Are they alone going to bring fans to the park knowing that the Pirates are a 60-65 win team? Nope. I maintain that Bell should have been traded earlier in the offseason because his value is probably at an all-time high and we won't be able to resign him. I don't trust him in 2020 to come close to his numbers. All you have to do is look at that one big year and then major drop-off; he comes out a blazing early in 2019 and then fell apart the second half. If this is all about prospect and controllable asset grab, then ...
Marte for Gsellman would be terrible. Trading your best asset for a reliever that doesn't close?
Couldn’t even keep Liriano
6C777A7B727E711F0 wrote:
I don't believe in forecasting which player will be here or not be here in a particular time period. There is no reason that marte could not be resigned to a new contract when he is eligible for FA. Teams do it all the time. Instead of pumping some uncertain future when some mystical core will be in place, I believe that we should add major league ball players right now, we are already one of the lowest team salaries in the league. I understand the economics of baseball, and I am not asking for Nutting to spend Yankees or Red Sox money. I am asking that they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money. And if they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money I fully understand that they may not end up winning the World Series as only 1 team in 30 wins the Series each year. But I don't accept the thinking that says well "we have to blow it up and see what we have' while the team salary is kept artificially low and then when they have a season where they win a few games they immediately flip the PR to "well we do not want to upset the team chemistry" by making any acquisitions.
OK, let's play the game of dreaming they can spend and bring in some guys. Of course, the guys have to want to come here too. And given where we are, they'd have to overpay to get them. But, based on what has happened in free agency, let's say they add 2-3 SP, a C, and at least one OF thumper at prices paid thus far. I'll ignore the Coles, Strausburgs, and Rendons since there was never a chance. But let's say we could add two of Ryu, Keuchel, and Wheeler. That's about $200M committed and $38-44M added to this year's payroll. Throw in a good bottom half of the rotation guy like Kyle Gibson or Teheran or Miley on a short deal. Add another $7-9M for next year. We're at $45-53M up, and the SP is looking good though we should worry about the ends of the Ryu & Keuchel deals as they'll be in their late 30's.
Total payroll is now around what? $105-115M? We haven't addressed C or OF to improve the lineup. Let's get a guy like Ozuna or Castellanos. That's $18M or so more. If we don't add Grandal, we can get buy with Chirinos at $7M.
Since we're fantasizing, I'll throw in Josh Donaldson to play 3rd, and ignore that he's 34 and it took a 4-year deal to get him. $23M/season more.
For position players, we're up another $48M and the lineup looks good. So, our total on our shopping spree is $93-101M for this year. Even if we leave out Donaldson, it's $70-78M. And total payroll is $130-140M. But we haven't addressed the BP yet. That'll add a bit more.
So, if you believe we would spend that much (and could attract all of those guys), the lineup is probably Marte, Frazier, Reynolds, Bell, Ozuna/Castellanos, Moran/Osuna, Chirinos, Newman. A bit short on power but pretty good. Put Donaldson at 3B and have him bat 3rd moving Reynolds to 2nd and Frazier down to 6/7(?). Very good lineup. SPs = (2 of Ryu, Keuchel, Wheeler), Keller, Gibson/Teheran/Miley, Musgrove. Move Archer to the BP and trade Williams. It may be good enough to compete in the Central.
The catch is that we just spent $70-100M of Nuttings $$$ and have a $130-150M payroll in 2020. Overall, he had to commit $300M (w/ Donaldson). And playoff odds are 60-40? 50-50?
And after all of that, that scenario is just never going to happen, and with Nutting running the show, odds are even lower.
I don't believe in forecasting which player will be here or not be here in a particular time period. There is no reason that marte could not be resigned to a new contract when he is eligible for FA. Teams do it all the time. Instead of pumping some uncertain future when some mystical core will be in place, I believe that we should add major league ball players right now, we are already one of the lowest team salaries in the league. I understand the economics of baseball, and I am not asking for Nutting to spend Yankees or Red Sox money. I am asking that they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money. And if they spend Brewers or Reds kind of money I fully understand that they may not end up winning the World Series as only 1 team in 30 wins the Series each year. But I don't accept the thinking that says well "we have to blow it up and see what we have' while the team salary is kept artificially low and then when they have a season where they win a few games they immediately flip the PR to "well we do not want to upset the team chemistry" by making any acquisitions.
OK, let's play the game of dreaming they can spend and bring in some guys. Of course, the guys have to want to come here too. And given where we are, they'd have to overpay to get them. But, based on what has happened in free agency, let's say they add 2-3 SP, a C, and at least one OF thumper at prices paid thus far. I'll ignore the Coles, Strausburgs, and Rendons since there was never a chance. But let's say we could add two of Ryu, Keuchel, and Wheeler. That's about $200M committed and $38-44M added to this year's payroll. Throw in a good bottom half of the rotation guy like Kyle Gibson or Teheran or Miley on a short deal. Add another $7-9M for next year. We're at $45-53M up, and the SP is looking good though we should worry about the ends of the Ryu & Keuchel deals as they'll be in their late 30's.
Total payroll is now around what? $105-115M? We haven't addressed C or OF to improve the lineup. Let's get a guy like Ozuna or Castellanos. That's $18M or so more. If we don't add Grandal, we can get buy with Chirinos at $7M.
Since we're fantasizing, I'll throw in Josh Donaldson to play 3rd, and ignore that he's 34 and it took a 4-year deal to get him. $23M/season more.
For position players, we're up another $48M and the lineup looks good. So, our total on our shopping spree is $93-101M for this year. Even if we leave out Donaldson, it's $70-78M. And total payroll is $130-140M. But we haven't addressed the BP yet. That'll add a bit more.
So, if you believe we would spend that much (and could attract all of those guys), the lineup is probably Marte, Frazier, Reynolds, Bell, Ozuna/Castellanos, Moran/Osuna, Chirinos, Newman. A bit short on power but pretty good. Put Donaldson at 3B and have him bat 3rd moving Reynolds to 2nd and Frazier down to 6/7(?). Very good lineup. SPs = (2 of Ryu, Keuchel, Wheeler), Keller, Gibson/Teheran/Miley, Musgrove. Move Archer to the BP and trade Williams. It may be good enough to compete in the Central.
The catch is that we just spent $70-100M of Nuttings $$$ and have a $130-150M payroll in 2020. Overall, he had to commit $300M (w/ Donaldson). And playoff odds are 60-40? 50-50?
And after all of that, that scenario is just never going to happen, and with Nutting running the show, odds are even lower.