Game Thread: 5-28-18 Bucs vs. Cubs, Memorial Day

[IABucFan]

070E061719630 wrote: Bobster,



I agree.  The word "Dirty" is clouding the issue.   I don't think it was dirty.  His spikes were down and he was hooking the lower leg, below the knee.   



It was definitely illegal!   no doubt to me. 


I disagree.  It was dirty.  Rizzo was already out, it was a force play, his sliding was not him getting out of the way.  He purposely tried to slide into the catcher to break up a play.  He had no business being where he was unless he was trying to make contact with the catcher which is a newer rule.




Breaking up a double play wasn't illegal until a couple years ago.    They made the play illegal.   Based on 2014 rules, that's a legal play and because cleats were down, contact was below the knee, and the body hit the dirt well before contact with the defender, it doesn't look like a dirty slide to me.   Looks like a slide by a guy trying to break up a double play    


Personally, I agree with this. Coughlan's play on Kang was dirty. I believed it then; I believe it now. Coughlan went in with his leg up, knee on knee, right into Kang's plant leg. Even before the rule change, I thought that was a dirty play.



I thought the Rizzo play, however, was clean, but illegal. I didn't see an intent to injure on that play. I'm not saying Coughlan triedto injure Kang, but it's much more negligible on that play than on the one yesterday.



Regardless, I'm much more worried about losing 7-0. The Pirates are still only two games out of a WC spot and we're a third of the way through the season. They are in this thing! Time to get the ship righted and win a game tonight.

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah the Rizzo slide is much less relevant than the slide the Pirates are experiencing right now.

[SteadyFreddy]

The division is definitely starting to slip away. The Pirates are now 6 games behind the Brewers and just 3 games over .500. But as you said IA they are still just 2.5 games out of a playoff spot and still have time to get this thing turned around. You wanna give the Cubs and big mouth Maddon payback for yesterday win these next 2 games in this series. With that being said, I still throw at Rizzo tonight and be ready for all possibilities if a brawl or ejection does happen.

[INbuc]

This issue could go a long way to defining the direction of this team. Are we going to be the patsies, the pushovers? During the recent playoff years, the pitchers rarely missed a chance to defend the hitters versus the Reds and Cards. Not surprisingly, the team played with more attitude, togetherness, and confidence. On the contrary, when business is not taken care off, it seems like divides occur and attitude suffers.



Guys like Harrison, Cervelli, SRod, and Freese are veterans and the leaders on this team. We likely saw Freese doing his job yesterday. Whether Kingham would be tossed or not if he hits Rizzo that first at-bat, he would earn the respect of all teammates, most of the people on this board, in the stands, and all interested people in the industry. Rizzo won’t be surprised – he has already been asked about it. The only lingering hurt will be to his to feelings.



This is part of baseball. Kingham might get punished, but he will be revered. His action, or inaction, could define the season.

[iwatch]

I hope the Pirates slide into the catcher today so I can watch Two-Face aka Joe Maddon come out to argue in the opposite way he did it yesterday. It would be so ironic, and the call would go the Cubs' way. There's a love affair with quirky Joe ever since he started doing goofy schtick like bringing a monkey in the dugout or dressing in odd ways.

[SteadyFreddy]

14133F283E5D0 wrote: This issue could go a long way to defining the direction of this team.   Are we going to be the patsies, the pushovers?   During the recent playoff years, the pitchers rarely missed a chance to defend the hitters versus the Reds and Cards.   Not surprisingly, the team played with more attitude, togetherness, and confidence.   On the contrary, when business is not taken care off, it seems like divides occur and attitude suffers.



Guys like Harrison, Cervelli, SRod, and Freese are veterans and the leaders on this team.   We likely saw Freese doing his job yesterday.   Whether Kingham would be tossed or not if he hits Rizzo that first at-bat, he would earn the respect of all teammates, most of the people on this board, in the stands, and all interested people in the industry.   Rizzo won’t be surprised – he has already been asked about it.  The only lingering hurt will be to his to feelings.



This is part of baseball.   Kingham might get punished, but he will be revered.   His action, or inaction, could define the season. 



Yea I agree completely. Sometimes in baseball throughout the course of a 162 game season something’s are more important then just 1 run or 1 bad inning or even 1 game. The Pirates can’t continue to let the Cubs walk all over them. You gotta take a stand against this team at some point. You got Maddon yesterday talking about how Diaz should be playing catcher and his technique and all that garbage, and how he is concerned about how fans are being taught the game. Rizzo needs drilled and Maddon needs his big mouth shut.

[Osushawn]

If Rizzo is playing first, the old spike to the back of a leg always comes in handy on a close play at first.

[Quail]

5B4662606E0B0 wrote: For me, there is a huge difference between breaking up a double play at second and doing what Rizzo did.  Every middle infielder from little league up is taught the footwork to get out of the way on a DP because the runner is going to try and mess you up.  You move.  You jump.  There are a number of different footwork patterns for doing this.  Middle infielders are aware.



Catchers are not.  Catchers are taught to do exactly what Diaz did because runners have no business head (or ankle) hunting catchers.  How far was Diaz supposed to move before he was "safe" to make a throw?  Was he supposed to jump like a SS?  With his gear on?  The reality is, it is a different play at the plate compared to 2nd base.  I'd tell my kid to go in hard to a SS/2bman. I'd tell him to avoid a catcher.  Esp if the catcher did what they are supposed to do and got out of the way.



Rizzo crossed the line.


I agree, and to this I will add that when Rizzo made contact with Diaz, our catcher had completed the force out, stepped out of the base path and with his back turned to Rizzo was making a throw to first base. In hockey or football that would be called a penalty for a hit on a defenseless player. In baseball it's no different. Diaz wasn't able to brace himself or defend himself. If Diaz had his foot more firmly planted when Rizzo's slew foot makes contact it could have resulted in a season ending injury such as an ACL tear. Whether or not MLB calls the play legal the play was dirty.

[MaineBucs]

1 - Shame on major league umpires not calling the play correctly, particularly after watching the replay.



2 - Shame on major league baseball - Why have a replay if blatant violations of the rules such as occurred yesterday are not enforced. If Posey or Molina were behind the plate, I doubt that the call goes this way.



3 - I have not read any of the post-game articles, but I did see the game. I actually think Rodriguez may have tried to hit Rizzo on the 2nd pitch that he burrowed into the ground, but he simply executed badly. But if that was the case, if you miss once, try try again until you get it right. Plant it in his ribs.



4 - If Freese was calling out his teammates and the coaching staff for not standing up to the Cubs, good for Freese. Respect is earned and not gifted (to most). Rizzo intentionally ran out of the baseline and slide into Diaz who was not looking at him. Diaz went down, but he fortunately was not seriously hurt. Rizzo's play also foiled what could have been a nice climb out of a deep hole; Bucs, in a 3-0 game, go from bases loaded and no outs to runners on 2nd & 3rd with two outs. Rizzo and the Cubs (I too loath Maddon) ruled and the Bucs lost.



5 - But, I do not have Kingham drill Rizzo today. Bucs lost a perfect chance yesterday. And now because they didn't retaliate when it would have meant something, you now sheepishly have another pitcher try to make amends.



6 - If you really want to get back at Rizzo, have Polanco (who isn't contributing much of anything on the field) run down to first on the inside of the baseline and collide with Rizzo in an attempt to get him to cough up the throw to first. No different than what Rizzo did yesterday. Both are illegal plays.



Disappointing to see the Bucs melting some. Need to get back to winning ways soon.

[dmetz]

I don't disagree that the catcher is defenseless because of the nature of the turn (45 degrees to his right).   I understand.  In the past, when a catcher reasonably could expect the breakup slide, he would possibly have cleared the plate more thoroughly.  Perhaps even out to the grass lip? almost a leap forward to get clear.    



Nowadays, he's not supposed to be slid into in that situation, so Diaz clearing in front of home was MORE than enough to not expect a takeout slide.  it was plenty of room and he was defenseless and not expecting the takeout.   The slide was illegal.  I don't want to split hairs about "dirty" ... because regardless of what it's called Rizzo should have 100% be squared up first pitch, next at bat for the slide.    If you miss him, you throw at him until you get him.



I'll concede it was dirty because of the points made.  Diaz was defenseless and because of the rules now, was not expecting to be contacted, making injury even more risky.