5B676A5F667D6E7B6A0F0 wrote: Moran will platoon at 3b with the guy we've already got. Musgrove will make the rotation in a lower slot than Cole had with us, or will have with Houston. Feliz is a righthanded relief pitcher. We also got AA outfielder who was not among the Astros top prospects.
I will now officially drop my plea to sign Moustakas. Moran will be our lefty batting 3rd baseman. I expect that Cutch will be gone by the end of the month.
Curious about who we will drop off the 40-man. Their value, however slight, will further tilt the scales out o our favor.
I am so disappointed. :-/
We haven’t received a major league OF in this trade, so I don’t think Cutch goes unless we get a good one. I think they’ll keep him and if we’re out of it by July they would trade him.
We are out of it now. What's the point in keeping him? Be honest.
Cole dealt to Astros
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
Cole dealt to Astros
5B4B4A7D6B6B67080 wrote:
..... As Bobster said, I'm glad Cole is dealt. I too wasn't enamored, however, he was our best trade bait. Did we do ok? Not sure.
This is the biggest concern - Cole was theoretically our most valuable piece. That being the case, the rebuild is going to be long and slow. There’s very little value left unless we trade young guys we should be building around.
As i said earlier - it’s hard to imagine this trade helping the Pirates in the future unless Moran turns into a star.
..... As Bobster said, I'm glad Cole is dealt. I too wasn't enamored, however, he was our best trade bait. Did we do ok? Not sure.
This is the biggest concern - Cole was theoretically our most valuable piece. That being the case, the rebuild is going to be long and slow. There’s very little value left unless we trade young guys we should be building around.
As i said earlier - it’s hard to imagine this trade helping the Pirates in the future unless Moran turns into a star.
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UtahPirate
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Cole dealt to Astros
4959586F7979751A0 wrote: Moran will platoon at 3b with the guy we've already got. Musgrove will make the rotation in a lower slot than Cole had with us, or will have with Houston. Feliz is a righthanded relief pitcher. We also got AA outfielder who was not among the Astros top prospects.
I will now officially drop my plea to sign Moustakas. Moran will be our lefty batting 3rd baseman. I expect that Cutch will be gone by the end of the month.
Curious about who we will drop off the 40-man. Their value, however slight, will further tilt the scales out o our favor.
I am so disappointed. :-/
We haven’t received a major league OF in this trade, so I don’t think Cutch goes unless we get a good one. I think they’ll keep him and if we’re out of it by July they would trade him.
We are out of it now. What's the point in keeping him? Be honest.
The brass will decide if we are out of it on July 31. I think the fan mindset was we were going to get prospects to start a rebuild. I think NH actually traded for pieces for 2018.
“We will continue to engage and look for opportunities that put us in position be be a better major league team than we were the last two years,” Huntington said. “If there is another move that makes sense, we have to engage on it. If not, that's fine as well.”
Moran fills our biggest need; Musgrove is additional pitching depth with experience (fill in for the Drew Hutchison fail); Martin was the throw-in. What changed from earlier this week when the rumors went wild and now? My guess is the Astros let go of Feliz. I'm not sure I ear-mark him as just a reliever. His K numbers are eye-catching (unfortunately his BB numbers are too). He's not a prospect as he has a lot of MLB experience, but he is pretty interesting. And he fills a bullpen spot.
I would be surprised to see Cutch or JHay go until the deadline now (and I know I'm in a minority there -- but agree with Syracuse). I don't think either is going to bring the kind of rebuilding value needed. Three of these guys will be in the lineup in April. One with a little experience, the other two with quite a bit of experience. If the Bucs really start a rebuild, it will be in July and you'll see Cutch, JHay and Rivero -- he's the guy that will bring real talent, especially for a closer-starved contender at the deadline -- on the block.
I will now officially drop my plea to sign Moustakas. Moran will be our lefty batting 3rd baseman. I expect that Cutch will be gone by the end of the month.
Curious about who we will drop off the 40-man. Their value, however slight, will further tilt the scales out o our favor.
I am so disappointed. :-/
We haven’t received a major league OF in this trade, so I don’t think Cutch goes unless we get a good one. I think they’ll keep him and if we’re out of it by July they would trade him.
We are out of it now. What's the point in keeping him? Be honest.
The brass will decide if we are out of it on July 31. I think the fan mindset was we were going to get prospects to start a rebuild. I think NH actually traded for pieces for 2018.
“We will continue to engage and look for opportunities that put us in position be be a better major league team than we were the last two years,” Huntington said. “If there is another move that makes sense, we have to engage on it. If not, that's fine as well.”
Moran fills our biggest need; Musgrove is additional pitching depth with experience (fill in for the Drew Hutchison fail); Martin was the throw-in. What changed from earlier this week when the rumors went wild and now? My guess is the Astros let go of Feliz. I'm not sure I ear-mark him as just a reliever. His K numbers are eye-catching (unfortunately his BB numbers are too). He's not a prospect as he has a lot of MLB experience, but he is pretty interesting. And he fills a bullpen spot.
I would be surprised to see Cutch or JHay go until the deadline now (and I know I'm in a minority there -- but agree with Syracuse). I don't think either is going to bring the kind of rebuilding value needed. Three of these guys will be in the lineup in April. One with a little experience, the other two with quite a bit of experience. If the Bucs really start a rebuild, it will be in July and you'll see Cutch, JHay and Rivero -- he's the guy that will bring real talent, especially for a closer-starved contender at the deadline -- on the block.
Cole dealt to Astros
Moran is what we needed and we got others. This was a solid trade. Moran will be what we need at 3rd for years to come.280 24 85...We just need 6 more of him ....lol
Cole dealt to Astros
40727E7E6A587B727F7A7572130 wrote: The thing is, I'm excited about the guys in this deal, but you still have this overarching feeling that this was the one piece we had to get something great, and it didn't happen.
Exactly.
We filled a need at 3B (created, in part, by lacking FO due diligence) with a guy who's, at best, an average ML 3Bman. Musgrove may have more to offer, but the consensus seems to be that his ceiling is a #3. The reliever may turn out to be good thanks to his high K rate if his high BB rate can be reduced, but he's still a reliever. And the AA OFer has a ceiling of a passable corner OFer.
So, where are the future stars in the organization? Maybe Keller. Maybe Taillon. Maybe Bell. Anyone else? Polanco's probably a longshot at this point.
I would've gone for a single, very high ceiling prospect as the return over the quantity of lower ceiling guys we received. Of course, I have no idea if that was possible. Still, comparing it to the Verlander trade, it doesn't look like NH max'd out the return.
Exactly.
We filled a need at 3B (created, in part, by lacking FO due diligence) with a guy who's, at best, an average ML 3Bman. Musgrove may have more to offer, but the consensus seems to be that his ceiling is a #3. The reliever may turn out to be good thanks to his high K rate if his high BB rate can be reduced, but he's still a reliever. And the AA OFer has a ceiling of a passable corner OFer.
So, where are the future stars in the organization? Maybe Keller. Maybe Taillon. Maybe Bell. Anyone else? Polanco's probably a longshot at this point.
I would've gone for a single, very high ceiling prospect as the return over the quantity of lower ceiling guys we received. Of course, I have no idea if that was possible. Still, comparing it to the Verlander trade, it doesn't look like NH max'd out the return.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Cole dealt to Astros
I just don't see a full rebuild. This trade makes me believe that even more. The rotation will have one guy over 25 years old. They have a RF, 1B, and now a 3B 25 years old or younger.
I feel Harrison has a replacement ready to start. I would try to use him for an outfielder to replace McCutchen. Trading McCutchen can bring back prospects, especially if a deadline deal. I would not trade Rivero.
I feel Harrison has a replacement ready to start. I would try to use him for an outfielder to replace McCutchen. Trading McCutchen can bring back prospects, especially if a deadline deal. I would not trade Rivero.
Cole dealt to Astros
If the Pirates were doing a full rebuild, they would go for lower level talent. Insisting on ML ready or near ready talent means they get players with a lower upside, but more certainty. If they had time they would go for the higher upside guys, much like the Astros did a few years ago and the White Sox more recently. It appears to me they are still trying to do the best they can within the budget limits imposed.
Cole dealt to Astros
I admit that I am not up on prospects around the league, but what I'm reading about this trade smells of Jason Bay 2.0. A bunch of major-league ready, medium-talent to throw against the wall and see what sticks/fills a hole.
If so, this is not a trade you do unless you're in the situation you are in when Jason Bay was traded: an empty, embarrassing ML team with NOTHING in the minors.
Who trades for a near-top-of-the-rotation pitcher with 2 years on his contract? A team that wants to compete in the next 2 years. They've made an internal valuation that the players they are trading, that are ML ballplayers (but for one) will not push them significantly towards that goal. Makes sense, why acquire Cole if they're gonna weaken their ML team?
But then why would the Pirates want a handful of players that a successful team thinks won't make THEM competitive? It would be one thing if they filled holes and their savings were used to acquire an impact ML player or two, but I will be shocked if such a thing happened, to say the LEAST.
It seems Moran is the centerpiece. His MiL SO/Walks are a bit rough, but gets on base at a decent clip. I favor that more than power as an indicator of ML success.
It looks like the Pirates went for quantity over quality, and that's not going to be a winning strategy. Would rather have had 2 lower-level, better prospects, even with the possibility of flame-out before they get to the majors. This smells of treading water, unless Moran turns out to be better than the league-average 3rd baseman I suspect he'll be.
But as I've said before, I'll never really know what was on the table to be traded, and what else could have been had. I've just about had it up to here with Andy LaRoches, though. 1992 was a long time ago, and there's been a lot of promises since. They failed to deliver on the McCutchen window, and now it appears we're up for more sub .500 seasons.
Meh, I'm just grousing that we didn't get someone splashy for 2 years of Cole. Guess a league-average 3rd baseman and a couple of pitchers that should stick to the roster (and hopefully do better than just stick), isn't horrible. I just don't know how we're going to compete like this. At SOME point we need better than journeymen players to have a winning season. Where are they to come from, if not from trades like this? Which turns the conversation back to the drafts. . . not an especially successful aspect of the Buc's organization either.
Wonder what the Astros policies are regarding booger-eating in the dugout. Gerrit should probably find out.
If so, this is not a trade you do unless you're in the situation you are in when Jason Bay was traded: an empty, embarrassing ML team with NOTHING in the minors.
Who trades for a near-top-of-the-rotation pitcher with 2 years on his contract? A team that wants to compete in the next 2 years. They've made an internal valuation that the players they are trading, that are ML ballplayers (but for one) will not push them significantly towards that goal. Makes sense, why acquire Cole if they're gonna weaken their ML team?
But then why would the Pirates want a handful of players that a successful team thinks won't make THEM competitive? It would be one thing if they filled holes and their savings were used to acquire an impact ML player or two, but I will be shocked if such a thing happened, to say the LEAST.
It seems Moran is the centerpiece. His MiL SO/Walks are a bit rough, but gets on base at a decent clip. I favor that more than power as an indicator of ML success.
It looks like the Pirates went for quantity over quality, and that's not going to be a winning strategy. Would rather have had 2 lower-level, better prospects, even with the possibility of flame-out before they get to the majors. This smells of treading water, unless Moran turns out to be better than the league-average 3rd baseman I suspect he'll be.
But as I've said before, I'll never really know what was on the table to be traded, and what else could have been had. I've just about had it up to here with Andy LaRoches, though. 1992 was a long time ago, and there's been a lot of promises since. They failed to deliver on the McCutchen window, and now it appears we're up for more sub .500 seasons.
Meh, I'm just grousing that we didn't get someone splashy for 2 years of Cole. Guess a league-average 3rd baseman and a couple of pitchers that should stick to the roster (and hopefully do better than just stick), isn't horrible. I just don't know how we're going to compete like this. At SOME point we need better than journeymen players to have a winning season. Where are they to come from, if not from trades like this? Which turns the conversation back to the drafts. . . not an especially successful aspect of the Buc's organization either.
Wonder what the Astros policies are regarding booger-eating in the dugout. Gerrit should probably find out.
Cole dealt to Astros
Musgrove is another pitch to contact guy. I hate that we won't move past that ridiculous philosophy,
The two most successful starting pitchers in recent times were swing and miss guys, Burnett and Liriano. But that doesn't phase this org. Right back to Nova's and Musgrove's of the world.
The reason why Cole underperformed his stuff is because he didn't miss enough bats with it. I don't know why, but it never made sense. Astros are prolly going to change that.
Charlie Morton could've been missing bats for years, but we forced the 2-seamers on him (Astros proved last year)
I'm guessing the Jeff Luhnow is thinking the same thing with Cole.
The two most successful starting pitchers in recent times were swing and miss guys, Burnett and Liriano. But that doesn't phase this org. Right back to Nova's and Musgrove's of the world.
The reason why Cole underperformed his stuff is because he didn't miss enough bats with it. I don't know why, but it never made sense. Astros are prolly going to change that.
Charlie Morton could've been missing bats for years, but we forced the 2-seamers on him (Astros proved last year)
I'm guessing the Jeff Luhnow is thinking the same thing with Cole.
Cole dealt to Astros
Also NH should have been fired at the end of the season and not been allowed to sell off. Now after this scattershot of low-upside talent for 2 years of cost-controlled Cole, he should be fired again. hypothetically re-hired so that he could be hypothetically re-fired lol!
This guy is a joke of a GM now. Whatever moxy he had 3-4 years ago is long gone.. Whether or not he's hamstrung by Nutting's payroll has nothing to do with his ridiculous trade returns (on paper).
He's being laughed at on this one, as is the org. Part of the Walker trade return value was "years of control" and we got totally cooked.
A huge part of this return value is "years of control" as well.
years of control mean nothing if you're controlling a couple 1 WAR players. The goal is to get as many GOOD players together at the same time as you can. Then you win.
This guy is a joke of a GM now. Whatever moxy he had 3-4 years ago is long gone.. Whether or not he's hamstrung by Nutting's payroll has nothing to do with his ridiculous trade returns (on paper).
He's being laughed at on this one, as is the org. Part of the Walker trade return value was "years of control" and we got totally cooked.
A huge part of this return value is "years of control" as well.
years of control mean nothing if you're controlling a couple 1 WAR players. The goal is to get as many GOOD players together at the same time as you can. Then you win.