Young Players

mouse · Post by **mouse** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:00 pm

Actually, the Padres tried it the other way around. A few years ago they made a big splash in the off-season and then flopped in the regular season. So they switched to the system of acquiring minor league talent and building a farm system. It took a number of years but now they have one of the best and are topping it with free agents.

skinnyhorse · Post by **skinnyhorse** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:58 pm

715457574269545C5E493B0 wrote: I have a little different take on free agents than most. I believe they're free agents because they asking more than they are worth to the team they're leaving. There's lots of these opportunist every year so lots of teams aren't willing to pay them what they think they're worth. Seems to me any player that becomes a free agent has overpriced themselves. If it was as easy as just outbidding the other teams then you could just out bid all other teams and be able to make a profit from being the best team in baseball. Obviously that's not the way it works. You have to be a good evaluator of talent and personalities. That's what I expect of any GM evaluating talent and personalities. He can't just be good at one he has to be good at everything. Teams like the Phillies paid big bucks for Harper, and they have a whole roster of free agents, and I can't see them winning with these guys who think they're worth more than they're original team was willing to give them. San Diego is another team that has done that and they're going nowhere. LA on the other hand resisted paying for those players and have a ton of home grown talent mixed with some trades, a very good manager and they are hands down the best team in baseball.

LA has resisted paying those players??????

I seem to recall that they handed out $365M to Mookie Betts including a $65M signing bonus. Think about that for a minute.

Betts signing bonus alone was 15-20M more than the entire Pirates payroll! An absolute numbing (Nutting) fact
Betts was acquired in a trade not through free agency, and his contract is for 12 years not 365 million for 1 year. My point is the Dodger are very good not through free agent signings (Betts was acquired through a trade) but through good player development. They were very good before Betts and most of their players are home grown. They could have paid for Harper and Machado but they evaluate talent and get them up to the majors early instead of waiting until they're older and have developed bad habits.

skinnyhorse · Post by **skinnyhorse** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:20 pm

The right approach is develop a #1 farm system and make a couple of smart trades, start to have winning seasons consistently and then I have no problem looking for the right free agent to make you better. Trying to start winning through free agency is a fools errand and will not lead to long term success.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:56 pm

The Pirates' financial constraints not only prevent them from acquiring impact player via free agency but it also prevents them from acquiring impact players via trades since such players come with large contracts. They traded for Archer despite his declining production for several years because he came with a team friendly contract considering he was an established veteran starter. A stupid move unless they had good reason to believe he would regain his form of 3 years prior. But this was as good a veteran as they would trade for because those currently productive (as opposed to 3 years ago like Archer was at the time of the trade) cost more than the Pirates will pay. So they took a chance on Archer because of his team friendly contract just as they take a chance on reclamation projects and dumpster dives. They don't go after impact players. They look for bargains and cross their fingers. That's no way to improve a team and we see the expected results.

I agree that the best plan is develop a strong core internally and then bring in a couple impact players (rather than reclamation hopefuls and dumpster dives) to put the team over the top. But the Pirates simply refuse to consider any top players either thru trade or free agency because of the cost.

GreenWeenie · Post by **GreenWeenie** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:24 pm

Mu$ic to BOB's ear$.

Kick$ the can a few more year$$$$, I mean- decade$.

JollyRoger · Post by **JollyRoger** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:50 pm

726A686F6F78696E737264010 wrote: I have a little different take on free agents than most. I believe they're free agents because they asking more than they are worth to the team they're leaving. There's lots of these opportunist every year so lots of teams aren't willing to pay them what they think they're worth. Seems to me any player that becomes a free agent has overpriced themselves. If it was as easy as just outbidding the other teams then you could just out bid all other teams and be able to make a profit from being the best team in baseball. Obviously that's not the way it works. You have to be a good evaluator of talent and personalities. That's what I expect of any GM evaluating talent and personalities. He can't just be good at one he has to be good at everything. Teams like the Phillies paid big bucks for Harper, and they have a whole roster of free agents, and I can't see them winning with these guys who think they're worth more than they're original team was willing to give them. San Diego is another team that has done that and they're going nowhere. LA on the other hand resisted paying for those players and have a ton of home grown talent mixed with some trades, a very good manager and they are hands down the best team in baseball.

LA has resisted paying those players??????

I seem to recall that they handed out $365M to Mookie Betts including a $65M signing bonus. Think about that for a minute.

Betts signing bonus alone was 15-20M more than the entire Pirates payroll! An absolute numbing (Nutting) fact
Betts was acquired in a trade not through free agency, and his contract is for 12 years not 365 million for 1 year. My point is the Dodger are very good not through free agent signings (Betts was acquired through a trade) but through good player development. They were very good before Betts and most of their players are home grown. They could have paid for Harper and Machado but they evaluate talent and get them up to the majors early instead of waiting until they're older and have developed bad habits.
I never said Betts got 365M for 1 year. Yes Betts was acquired via trade but you better believe the Dodgers were confident they could sign him long term. They also had to pick up David Price’s contract. They gave up Their #1, #3, and #28 prospects (Alex Verdugo, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong) Anyway you look at it the Dodgers paid historical bucks plus traded away prospects.

I am in total agreement that the Dodgers run circles around the Pirates when it comes to scouting. They always seem to connect on their drafts whereas the Bucs with the exception of Cole and maybe Nick Gonzales this year have been horrid

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:52 pm

5E7B78786D467B737166140 wrote: I have a little different take on free agents than most. I believe they're free agents because they asking more than they are worth to the team they're leaving. There's lots of these opportunist every year so lots of teams aren't willing to pay them what they think they're worth. Seems to me any player that becomes a free agent has overpriced themselves. If it was as easy as just outbidding the other teams then you could just out bid all other teams and be able to make a profit from being the best team in baseball. Obviously that's not the way it works. You have to be a good evaluator of talent and personalities. That's what I expect of any GM evaluating talent and personalities. He can't just be good at one he has to be good at everything. Teams like the Phillies paid big bucks for Harper, and they have a whole roster of free agents, and I can't see them winning with these guys who think they're worth more than they're original team was willing to give them. San Diego is another team that has done that and they're going nowhere. LA on the other hand resisted paying for those players and have a ton of home grown talent mixed with some trades, a very good manager and they are hands down the best team in baseball.

LA has resisted paying those players??????

I seem to recall that they handed out $365M to Mookie Betts including a $65M signing bonus. Think about that for a minute.

Betts signing bonus alone was 15-20M more than the entire Pirates payroll! An absolute numbing (Nutting) fact
Betts was acquired in a trade not through free agency, and his contract is for 12 years not 365 million for 1 year. My point is the Dodger are very good not through free agent signings (Betts was acquired through a trade) but through good player development. They were very good before Betts and most of their players are home grown. They could have paid for Harper and Machado but they evaluate talent and get them up to the majors early instead of waiting until they're older and have developed bad habits.
I never said Betts got 365M for 1 year. Yes Betts was acquired via trade but you better believe the Dodgers were confident they could sign him long term. They also had to pick up David Price’s contract. They gave up Their #1, #3, and #28 prospects (Alex Verdugo, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong) Anyway you look at it the Dodgers paid historical bucks plus traded away prospects.

I am in total agreement that the Dodgers run circles around the Pirates when it comes to scouting. They always seem to connect on their drafts whereas the Bucs with the exception of Cole and maybe Nick Gonzales this year have been horrid
Dodgers give up top prospects for Betts, one of MLB's best. Pirates give up top prospects in 2018 for Archer who was in the midst of his worst career year and hadn't pitched effectively for 3 years. I'm beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, it matters who you give up top prospects to get.

MJohnson · Post by **MJohnson** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:52 pm

0E232E3F38293E7E7D4C0 wrote: The Pirates' financial constraints not only prevent them from acquiring impact player via free agency but it also prevents them from acquiring impact players via trades since such players come with large contracts. They traded for Archer despite his declining production for several years because he came with a team friendly contract considering he was an established veteran starter. A stupid move unless they had good reason to believe he would regain his form of 3 years prior. But this was as good a veteran as they would trade for because those currently productive (as opposed to 3 years ago like Archer was at the time of the trade) cost more than the Pirates will pay. So they took a chance on Archer because of his team friendly contract just as they take a chance on reclamation projects and dumpster dives. They don't go after impact players. They look for bargains and cross their fingers. That's no way to improve a team and we see the expected results.

I agree that the best plan is develop a strong core internally and then bring in a couple impact players (rather than reclamation hopefuls and dumpster dives) to put the team over the top. But the Pirates simply refuse to consider any top players either thru trade or free agency because of the cost.

Plus the Pirates' fiscal demands make them unwilling to retain impact players they develop. So the window gets really narrow. Bell OPS'd over .900 last year, and we know he'll be traded. The Dodgers had 4 regulars who slugged over .500 last year, how many players do the Pirates have who have the potential to slug .500? Now, what are the odds there will be 4 young guys who will slug .500 at the same time before they are traded? That's what it is going to take to build a winner in Pittsburgh. Also, we'll need an ace starter to develop in that same window.

It is impossible to build from your farm system when you are unwilling to retain the talent the farm produces.

GreenWeenie · Post by **GreenWeenie** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:00 pm

The two fastest ways to find yourself out of the Pirates clubhouse.*

1. Be awful.

2. Be pretty good.

*Assuming that live a life of decency off the field.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:07 pm

1F183D3A3C213D3C520 wrote: The Pirates' financial constraints not only prevent them from acquiring impact player via free agency but it also prevents them from acquiring impact players via trades since such players come with large contracts. They traded for Archer despite his declining production for several years because he came with a team friendly contract considering he was an established veteran starter. A stupid move unless they had good reason to believe he would regain his form of 3 years prior. But this was as good a veteran as they would trade for because those currently productive (as opposed to 3 years ago like Archer was at the time of the trade) cost more than the Pirates will pay. So they took a chance on Archer because of his team friendly contract just as they take a chance on reclamation projects and dumpster dives. They don't go after impact players. They look for bargains and cross their fingers. That's no way to improve a team and we see the expected results.

I agree that the best plan is develop a strong core internally and then bring in a couple impact players (rather than reclamation hopefuls and dumpster dives) to put the team over the top. But the Pirates simply refuse to consider any top players either thru trade or free agency because of the cost.

Plus the Pirates' fiscal demands make them unwilling to retain impact players they develop. So the window gets really narrow. Bell OPS'd over .900 last year, and we know he'll be traded. The Dodgers had 4 regulars who slugged over .500 last year, how many players do the Pirates have who have the potential to slug .500? Now, what are the odds there will be 4 young guys who will slug .500 at the same time before they are traded? That's what it is going to take to build a winner in Pittsburgh. Also, we'll need an ace starter to develop in that same window.

It is impossible to build from your farm system when you are unwilling to retain the talent the farm produces.
Not to mention the fact that no productive Pirate in his right mind who can move to a team that actually attempts to compete would sign to remain a Pirate thru his prime years. Players want to experience post season play and hopefully a WS. None are going to say, "I gave that up because the Pirates made me a nice offer" unless it was a gross overpayment of whatever other teams would offer. And Nutting would never make such an offer.

We often hear complaints that the Pirates didn't try to retain one of their FAs. But it's not that simple. The Nutting organization is probably the absolute worst a player can be stuck in. It's not just money that makes them want to leave and there's no way Nutting overpays to keep them.