Overshadowed by everything else
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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johnfluharty
Overshadowed by everything else
Gregory Polanco stinks. At what point do we give up on this guy? I'm tempted to give him all or most of this year since this is probably a lost year but after that we need to start thinking about a plan B.
Overshadowed by everything else
Polanco struggling so mightily and not being able to catch flyballs is another example of how we cannot just sit around and hope and pray that our awesome prospects work out perfectly.
When you have an opportunity, you go for it. Because you never know when the next can't miss all-star outfielder forgets how to hit and catch for 4 months, or gets busted for PEDs.
The hype on his defense was clearly wrong. His bat had a ton of potential. The defensive hype miss is just another in a long line of defensive misses by minor league bloggers and some scouts
When you have an opportunity, you go for it. Because you never know when the next can't miss all-star outfielder forgets how to hit and catch for 4 months, or gets busted for PEDs.
The hype on his defense was clearly wrong. His bat had a ton of potential. The defensive hype miss is just another in a long line of defensive misses by minor league bloggers and some scouts
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DemDog
Overshadowed by everything else
El Coffee has me scratching my head. He sure has gone downhill since mid season last year. But giving up on him, well I remember a guy by the name of Jose Bautista whom the Pirates gave up on. Don't get me wrong I am not saying never give up on Polanco but like wvbucco at least give him this year and depending on circumstance perhaps til the trade deadline in 2019.
What has me most concerned with him is his fielding. Long and
awkward as he looks I can see why some guys could say his fielding was suspect. At least til 2017. Seeing him miss balls that hit his glove almost in the pocket, not turning correctly going back for fly balls. Its almost like he never played the OF before. (Oh no, don't get the idea that Jaso should replace him late in games for defensive purposes. ;D ;D ;D )
What has me most concerned with him is his fielding. Long and
awkward as he looks I can see why some guys could say his fielding was suspect. At least til 2017. Seeing him miss balls that hit his glove almost in the pocket, not turning correctly going back for fly balls. Its almost like he never played the OF before. (Oh no, don't get the idea that Jaso should replace him late in games for defensive purposes. ;D ;D ;D )
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rucker59@gmail.com
Overshadowed by everything else
I obviously agree that Polanco is a mystery and a disappointment so far, but I also agree that's its way too early to give up....unless the team is thinking "rebuild" in a month or two. He should still be a valuable asset, I would think.
Then there is this, in the "overshadowed by everything else" category....talk about a huge decision.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.3136922
Then there is this, in the "overshadowed by everything else" category....talk about a huge decision.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.3136922
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Bobster21
Overshadowed by everything else
67464E674C44230 wrote: El Coffee has me scratching my head. He sure has gone downhill since mid season last year. But giving up on him, well I remember a guy by the name of Jose Bautista whom the Pirates gave up on. Don't get me wrong I am not saying never give up on Polanco but like wvbucco at least give him this year and depending on circumstance perhaps til the trade deadline in 2019.
What has me most concerned with him is his fielding. Long and
awkward as he looks I can see why some guys could say his fielding was suspect. At least til 2017. Seeing him miss balls that hit his glove almost in the pocket, not turning correctly going back for fly balls. Its almost like he never played the OF before. (Oh no, don't get the idea that Jaso should replace him late in games for defensive purposes. ;D ;D ;D )
I agree that he frequently looks like he never played OF before, which is puzzling.
I think the Polanco situation ties in with the overall team-building strategy inasmuch as a great deal is expected of prospects because money will not be spent to acquire proven, productive players. On many other teams, Polanco would bat 7th, play RF (good arm, less room to roam and fewer chances since most batters are RH) and then be replaced for defense in late innings. For the previous 2 years his hitting has been acceptable and suggests he can do even better. But his glove suggests a future at DH. But on the Pirates, everything is based on best case scenarios and top prospects are expected to lead the team. Moving Polanco to the large LF at PNC had disaster written all over it after seeing his flawed defense in prior seasons. And his hitting is expected-and needed-to propel the team. Much like Pedro in his Pirate years. As a big power but low average and high K batter, Pedro would have been fine batting lower in the order and not expected to carry the team. But the Pirates don't pay for established, productive players so guys like Pedro and Polanco are relied upon to be those impact players. In other words, the Pirates require more of prospects than they are capable of producing because they won't pay to acquire players with established abilities to produce. So Polanco was forced into the roles of being a middle of the order run producer and left fielder. As a hitter, he may yet get there but he's not there yet. As a fielder, he simply doesn't have it and never looked like he ever did.
What has me most concerned with him is his fielding. Long and
awkward as he looks I can see why some guys could say his fielding was suspect. At least til 2017. Seeing him miss balls that hit his glove almost in the pocket, not turning correctly going back for fly balls. Its almost like he never played the OF before. (Oh no, don't get the idea that Jaso should replace him late in games for defensive purposes. ;D ;D ;D )
I agree that he frequently looks like he never played OF before, which is puzzling.
I think the Polanco situation ties in with the overall team-building strategy inasmuch as a great deal is expected of prospects because money will not be spent to acquire proven, productive players. On many other teams, Polanco would bat 7th, play RF (good arm, less room to roam and fewer chances since most batters are RH) and then be replaced for defense in late innings. For the previous 2 years his hitting has been acceptable and suggests he can do even better. But his glove suggests a future at DH. But on the Pirates, everything is based on best case scenarios and top prospects are expected to lead the team. Moving Polanco to the large LF at PNC had disaster written all over it after seeing his flawed defense in prior seasons. And his hitting is expected-and needed-to propel the team. Much like Pedro in his Pirate years. As a big power but low average and high K batter, Pedro would have been fine batting lower in the order and not expected to carry the team. But the Pirates don't pay for established, productive players so guys like Pedro and Polanco are relied upon to be those impact players. In other words, the Pirates require more of prospects than they are capable of producing because they won't pay to acquire players with established abilities to produce. So Polanco was forced into the roles of being a middle of the order run producer and left fielder. As a hitter, he may yet get there but he's not there yet. As a fielder, he simply doesn't have it and never looked like he ever did.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Overshadowed by everything else
I agree with Bobster for the most part. Polanco was showing signs with the bat and I project him to be a middle of the line up type of hitter. He had a fine season last year and needs to improve on that this year. Right now, he is not showing those same signs.
His defense is bad, but he has the arm. I wouldn't have moved him to LF. I still think he is the worse starting outfielder on the team (with Marte and McCutchen the other starters).
It is way too early to give up on him. He is the type of player rebuilding teams would go after. He has shown promise and is about to hit his prime years. He is even under contract and could be a steal.
So far, he is on pace to what McCutchen was doing at his young age. The stats show that too. Is there more pressure on Polanco or is he being noticed more since this team is supposed to win? McCutchen was the start of the rebuilding. Polanco was brought up to put the team over the top.
I expected Polanco to have a breakout season in 2017. His Baseball Classic play was one of the best too. So far, he is struggling. But no way do I give up on him. He has too much raw talent. I sure do wish he could catch a fly ball!
His defense is bad, but he has the arm. I wouldn't have moved him to LF. I still think he is the worse starting outfielder on the team (with Marte and McCutchen the other starters).
It is way too early to give up on him. He is the type of player rebuilding teams would go after. He has shown promise and is about to hit his prime years. He is even under contract and could be a steal.
So far, he is on pace to what McCutchen was doing at his young age. The stats show that too. Is there more pressure on Polanco or is he being noticed more since this team is supposed to win? McCutchen was the start of the rebuilding. Polanco was brought up to put the team over the top.
I expected Polanco to have a breakout season in 2017. His Baseball Classic play was one of the best too. So far, he is struggling. But no way do I give up on him. He has too much raw talent. I sure do wish he could catch a fly ball!
Overshadowed by everything else
The issue with Polanco has less to do with his skills/production and a lot more to do with how the organization continues to promote/use him as something that he isn't. Which, quite frankly, is a major problem with how this organization operates:
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
Overshadowed by everything else
1232213C3D530 wrote: The issue with Polanco has less to do with his skills/production and a lot more to do with how the organization continues to promote/use him as something that he isn't. Which, quite frankly, is a major problem with how this organization operates:
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
This is 100% correct IMO
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
This is 100% correct IMO
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Overshadowed by everything else
0626352829470 wrote: The issue with Polanco has less to do with his skills/production and a lot more to do with how the organization continues to promote/use him as something that he isn't. Which, quite frankly, is a major problem with how this organization operates:
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
Good post. I agree too. But not every player can bat 7th?
I am old school where I want someone fast to lead off, contact hitter at #2, best average at #3, power hitter at #4, #5 is another high average guy with the #6-#8 in any order. These all new fancy stats say otherwise. The Pirates just want good overall hitters who all do the same thing. It's like they are in the same mold.
I don't like the numbering of pitchers either. Just because Cole isn't an 'ace" doesn't mean he isn't a very good pitcher. I would take three Cole's any day in my rotation.
Watson's promotion is kind of a back hand compliment. People want the best bullpen guy to come in when the game is on the line and not a save situation. That is happening in Rivero, as he is the best bullpen arm. It will probably be rare where Watson gets in trouble and Rivero is available.
Good post!
It's pretty clear that despite Polanco's potential, he's not currently (and very likely will never become) a consistent, middle of the order run producer. Yet, the organization will continue to pretend that he is, and bat him 4th or 5th. It's only going to get uglier when McCutchen is gone and they plug him into the three hole in the lineup, whether or not he ever produces like a #3 hitter should.
No different than what they're currently doing with other players:
Gerrit Cole, while a very good starting pitcher, he hasn't been your prototypical, "ace." But the Pirates drafted him to be an ace, so he's gonna be their ace, even if he isn't one.
Tony Watson, was in line to be the next closer, after Melancon was no longer with the team. So, even if his results haven't been good since becoming the closer last year, he's the closer regardless.
Cutch was once an MVP and an incredible #3 hitter. The organization recognized that he isn't that anymore so they tried to dump his salary. When they failed to do that, they just said, "Oh, well although we know he isn't what he used to be, we're gonna plug him in that three hole and just say he's still an MVP!"
These are the reasons why this organization is going nowhere. They continue to place unrealistic expectations on players and put them in spots where they're likely not going to get the production needed to fill those roles adequately.
So, getting back to Polanco, he wouldn't be so much of an issue if the organization saw him as more of a complimentary player. A guy that bats 6th or 7th and makes contributions but isn't a star.
But they'll continue to pretend he's a star, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and continue to have below .500 seasons.
The organization is ultimately satisfied with whatever happens on the field. "These are our players and these are the guys that are going to play for us, in the positions we imagined for them, results be damned."
Good post. I agree too. But not every player can bat 7th?
I am old school where I want someone fast to lead off, contact hitter at #2, best average at #3, power hitter at #4, #5 is another high average guy with the #6-#8 in any order. These all new fancy stats say otherwise. The Pirates just want good overall hitters who all do the same thing. It's like they are in the same mold.
I don't like the numbering of pitchers either. Just because Cole isn't an 'ace" doesn't mean he isn't a very good pitcher. I would take three Cole's any day in my rotation.
Watson's promotion is kind of a back hand compliment. People want the best bullpen guy to come in when the game is on the line and not a save situation. That is happening in Rivero, as he is the best bullpen arm. It will probably be rare where Watson gets in trouble and Rivero is available.
Good post!
Overshadowed by everything else
Polanco is a major disappointment.
He clearly is not a left fielder, particularly for a team that plays half of its games at PNC. I particularly loath how he chases (not pursues) in the corner and then turns and throws sidearm (almost underhand) to the infield. Way too cavalier to me.
I know that the team is nearly devoid of having any outfielders on the team right now. That said, I would rather have (major) weakneses at only 1 outfield spot rather than 2 (putting aside for the moment the issue of Cutch really being a CF'er). Thus, I move Polanco back to RF where he appeared to be more comfortable, and I go with a combination of other bad fielders in LF. That combination includes Osuna, Frazier and Harrison.
As for his hitting, l1.5 years ago I advocated trying to trade for Carrasco using Polanco as the centerpiece of the deal. But, Polanco then got off to a very good start in the first half of last year and I retrenched and stated that I was wrong about wanting to move Polanco. Well, he has now hit poorly for more than half a season. While I agree that it is too early to simply give up on him, the Pirates should recognize that he isn't hitting and that they should move him out of the 4 hole, even though they don't have another real/good option for the middle of the order. The Bucs failed to do such with McCutchen last year by stubbornly not moving him out of the #3 hole and I believe it really hurt the team.
So ---
Polanco goes back to RF and bats 6th or 7th in the line-up.
Until Frazier returns, Osuna gets most of the team in LF with Harrison playing there on occasion, which means both Gift and Hanson are in the IF. While neither Harrison or Osuna are good outfielders, I believe either is currently a better option than Polanco in LF and with Polanco in RF, meaning that Jaso is not.
When Frazier and hopefully Freeze returns, Frazier, who similarly is not a good outfielder, gets regular playing time in LF. with Freeze at third and Harrison at 2nd. Gosselin should be released and Gift sent down when both Frazier and Freese come back.
At present, there is no part of Polanco's game that is an asset to the Pirates. He is not a great threat on the bases, he is a horrible defender, and he offers little on offense. What a disappointment. I also harken back to folks who asked for NH's head because he didn't bring up Polanco earlier.
He clearly is not a left fielder, particularly for a team that plays half of its games at PNC. I particularly loath how he chases (not pursues) in the corner and then turns and throws sidearm (almost underhand) to the infield. Way too cavalier to me.
I know that the team is nearly devoid of having any outfielders on the team right now. That said, I would rather have (major) weakneses at only 1 outfield spot rather than 2 (putting aside for the moment the issue of Cutch really being a CF'er). Thus, I move Polanco back to RF where he appeared to be more comfortable, and I go with a combination of other bad fielders in LF. That combination includes Osuna, Frazier and Harrison.
As for his hitting, l1.5 years ago I advocated trying to trade for Carrasco using Polanco as the centerpiece of the deal. But, Polanco then got off to a very good start in the first half of last year and I retrenched and stated that I was wrong about wanting to move Polanco. Well, he has now hit poorly for more than half a season. While I agree that it is too early to simply give up on him, the Pirates should recognize that he isn't hitting and that they should move him out of the 4 hole, even though they don't have another real/good option for the middle of the order. The Bucs failed to do such with McCutchen last year by stubbornly not moving him out of the #3 hole and I believe it really hurt the team.
So ---
Polanco goes back to RF and bats 6th or 7th in the line-up.
Until Frazier returns, Osuna gets most of the team in LF with Harrison playing there on occasion, which means both Gift and Hanson are in the IF. While neither Harrison or Osuna are good outfielders, I believe either is currently a better option than Polanco in LF and with Polanco in RF, meaning that Jaso is not.
When Frazier and hopefully Freeze returns, Frazier, who similarly is not a good outfielder, gets regular playing time in LF. with Freeze at third and Harrison at 2nd. Gosselin should be released and Gift sent down when both Frazier and Freese come back.
At present, there is no part of Polanco's game that is an asset to the Pirates. He is not a great threat on the bases, he is a horrible defender, and he offers little on offense. What a disappointment. I also harken back to folks who asked for NH's head because he didn't bring up Polanco earlier.