1B2638353A303B193126373130540 wrote: Marte.
Good pull. Marte has been and still is a very good player. Best player on this baseball team by a margin, imo. That's why NH should be able to return a nice haul for him, right?
However, developmentally, Marte is hardly a poster boy. His batting style has never changed. His walk rate norm is 5%. He's at 7% now for 2018 and generally his free-swinging gets worse later in the season, so I'll be interested in seeing if he even beats his career norm.
His strengths remain his strengths, and his weaknesses (O-swing, walk rate) remain his weaknesses. He's a DL pickup, btw. Not that his development has anything to do with that.
Polanco is what we're showing for all that touted Dominican investment so long ago. Remember that? Have we even turned a trade with an OK return on a Dominican prospect due to all that investment?
Domincan investment! Overslot draft spending! Now that the dust is settling 6-7-8-9 years later ..what a disaster :-[
What do you want to see...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What do you want to see...
3A333B2A245E0 wrote: Marte.
Good pull. Marte has been and still is a very good player. Best player on this baseball team by a margin, imo. That's why NH should be able to return a nice haul for him, right?
However, developmentally, Marte is hardly a poster boy. His batting style has never changed. His walk rate norm is 5%. He's at 7% now for 2018 and generally his free-swinging gets worse later in the season, so I'll be interested in seeing if he even beats his career norm.
His strengths remain his strengths, and his weaknesses (O-swing, walk rate) remain his weaknesses. He's a DL pickup, btw. Not that his development has anything to do with that.
Polanco is what we're showing for all that touted Dominican investment so long ago. Remember that? Have we even turned a trade with an OK return on a Dominican prospect due to all that investment?
[highlight]Domincan investment! Overslot draft spending! Now that the dust is settling 6-7-8-9 years later ..what a disaster :-[
[/highlight]
Just need to give it a little more time.
Good pull. Marte has been and still is a very good player. Best player on this baseball team by a margin, imo. That's why NH should be able to return a nice haul for him, right?
However, developmentally, Marte is hardly a poster boy. His batting style has never changed. His walk rate norm is 5%. He's at 7% now for 2018 and generally his free-swinging gets worse later in the season, so I'll be interested in seeing if he even beats his career norm.
His strengths remain his strengths, and his weaknesses (O-swing, walk rate) remain his weaknesses. He's a DL pickup, btw. Not that his development has anything to do with that.
Polanco is what we're showing for all that touted Dominican investment so long ago. Remember that? Have we even turned a trade with an OK return on a Dominican prospect due to all that investment?
[highlight]Domincan investment! Overslot draft spending! Now that the dust is settling 6-7-8-9 years later ..what a disaster :-[
[/highlight]
Just need to give it a little more time.
What do you want to see...
1D382B3E22292223262E4A0 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
-
Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
What do you want to see...
4460747C79150 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
I was more concerned with your response than the specific question posed. He may have only been selected to one All-Star game, but he played at an All-Star for the four years and he's back to being a pretty good player now. Comparing him to guys like Jeff Locke is disingenuous.
I tend to be of the belief that players are largely responsible for their own careers, but I don't think it's objective to state the Pirates failed with a bunch of players and then deny them credit for the players that didn't. If we are going to talk about team development, nobody else can have credit for Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
I was more concerned with your response than the specific question posed. He may have only been selected to one All-Star game, but he played at an All-Star for the four years and he's back to being a pretty good player now. Comparing him to guys like Jeff Locke is disingenuous.
I tend to be of the belief that players are largely responsible for their own careers, but I don't think it's objective to state the Pirates failed with a bunch of players and then deny them credit for the players that didn't. If we are going to talk about team development, nobody else can have credit for Marte.
What do you want to see...
705546534F444F4E4B43270 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
I was more concerned with your response than the specific question posed. He may have only been selected to one All-Star game, but he played at an All-Star for the four years and he's back to being a pretty good player now. Comparing him to guys like Jeff Locke is disingenuous.
I tend to be of the belief that players are largely responsible for their own careers, but I don't think it's objective to state the Pirates failed with a bunch of players and then deny them credit for the players that didn't. If we are going to talk about team development, nobody else can have credit for Marte.
Which begs the specific question that's derived from what I originally asked; how good a player would Marte be if he'd come through a different organization. Unfortunately, I can't help thinking that Gerrit Cole might be the reveal on that.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
You bet I'm serious, especially with regard to the Pirates development of him. As Dmetz has clearly pointed out his performance is in stasis or decline, and there is a legitimate question as to whether his All-Star season in 2016 might have been aided by the use of PEDs.
The question posed was who have the Pirates developed that has become an All-Star. If you want to say a one time All-Star appearance in 7 years qualifies then Marte is an All-Star much like Matt Capps and Jeff Locke were. But I was thinking more along the lines of an All-Star like Cutch with successive appearances. Again, I agree with Dmetz that Marte is the best player on the Pirates, but that is faint praise indeed. He's a good player who is above average at his position, a great complementary player, not a franchise-type player.
Cole's performance with Houston speaks for itself. It's an indictment of the Pirates "system". Again I say if you're satisfied with how they developed Cole then you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB. That road leads to irrelevance not championships.
I was more concerned with your response than the specific question posed. He may have only been selected to one All-Star game, but he played at an All-Star for the four years and he's back to being a pretty good player now. Comparing him to guys like Jeff Locke is disingenuous.
I tend to be of the belief that players are largely responsible for their own careers, but I don't think it's objective to state the Pirates failed with a bunch of players and then deny them credit for the players that didn't. If we are going to talk about team development, nobody else can have credit for Marte.
Which begs the specific question that's derived from what I originally asked; how good a player would Marte be if he'd come through a different organization. Unfortunately, I can't help thinking that Gerrit Cole might be the reveal on that.
What do you want to see...
The flip side to that coin is always how much worse might Marte be if he tried to fiddle with his approach, take more pitches, and start with this "launch angle" stuff?
I think he's a very good player and badly underrated by Pirates fans. He's not fundamentally sound and he's a free-swinger. Also, at times, he's gotten caught loafing. That combination seems to be a real no-no in Pittsburgh.
he may steal 40+ bags and hit 18-20 homers this year while playing a pretty OK Centerfield. Yinzer nation needs to be careful what they wish for, cause players like Marte don't come along often, especially in Pittsburgh!
I think he's a very good player and badly underrated by Pirates fans. He's not fundamentally sound and he's a free-swinger. Also, at times, he's gotten caught loafing. That combination seems to be a real no-no in Pittsburgh.
he may steal 40+ bags and hit 18-20 homers this year while playing a pretty OK Centerfield. Yinzer nation needs to be careful what they wish for, cause players like Marte don't come along often, especially in Pittsburgh!
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Bobster21
What do you want to see...
4D444C5D53290 wrote: The flip side to that coin is always how much worse might Marte be if he tried to fiddle with his approach, take more pitches, and start with this "launch angle" stuff?
I think he's a very good player and badly underrated by Pirates fans. He's not fundamentally sound and he's a free-swinger. Also, at times, he's gotten caught loafing. That combination seems to be a real no-no in Pittsburgh.
he may steal 40+ bags and hit 18-20 homers this year while playing a pretty OK Centerfield. Yinzer nation needs to be careful what they wish for, cause players like Marte don't come along often, especially in Pittsburgh!
I agree. It just seems like the curse of the Pirates to have a player with such tremendous physical skills yet flawed. It seems his problems of pitch selection, occasional loafing and baserunning blunders would be fixable. But this is symptomatic of the Pirate organization. Too often they fail to get thru to players about the mental aspects of the game. It prevents them from having complete players. Still, I like Marte. He should be a player to build around. He just needs to be more fundamentally sound. But this organization seems to have a real problem with fundamentals.
I think he's a very good player and badly underrated by Pirates fans. He's not fundamentally sound and he's a free-swinger. Also, at times, he's gotten caught loafing. That combination seems to be a real no-no in Pittsburgh.
he may steal 40+ bags and hit 18-20 homers this year while playing a pretty OK Centerfield. Yinzer nation needs to be careful what they wish for, cause players like Marte don't come along often, especially in Pittsburgh!
I agree. It just seems like the curse of the Pirates to have a player with such tremendous physical skills yet flawed. It seems his problems of pitch selection, occasional loafing and baserunning blunders would be fixable. But this is symptomatic of the Pirate organization. Too often they fail to get thru to players about the mental aspects of the game. It prevents them from having complete players. Still, I like Marte. He should be a player to build around. He just needs to be more fundamentally sound. But this organization seems to have a real problem with fundamentals.
What do you want to see...
We talk all the time about the players they get, and mention Vogelsong (sp?) and his ilk, because they cost less. I suspect they do the same with coaches as well. They aren't going to get first level coaching talent.
What do you want to see...
With respect to coaches, the Marlins (ok, it was the Marlins), were willing to trade Trevor Williams for Jim Benedict, the Pirates AAA pitching coach. True to form, however, the Marlins dumped Benedict a few years later.
So --- let's just the obvious; at present, the Pirates are a mess.
Their young pitchers, at best, are doing okay. And, that may be okay if it looked like 2 of them may blossom into better than ok pitchers within the next year or so. Unfortunately, 3 years from now, it appears that most will be in Jeff Locke territory vs. being the next incantation of Doug Drabek or John Smiley.
Their younger hitters, Polanco and Bell, and underperforming compared to many players on other clubs, and there is no great indication that they will ever be anything other than flawed hitters. I will be a bit kinder to Moran because this is really his first full season. On the plus side, Meadows and (surprisingly) Diaz, both look like they could be major league bats, although neither appears to be an elite player.
Their older hitters are not aging all that well. Harrison is a below average hitter, Mercer never was more than an occasional streak hitter, and Cervelli has had very mixed results (and way too many injuries). Unfortunately, it appears that this year's addition, Dickerson, has sacrificed most of his power and rarely walks, which does not make him a good long-term option for LF. I agree with others that Marte is the best player on the team, and also agree that he has flaws that appear to be preventing him for regularly reaching elite status.
Management. I loath Hurdle. I know that players much more than managers make the team, however, Pittsburgh has had a string of poor string of managers that have coincided with the many years of losing. In the past, I have often praised NH. This year's blaming of the fans, however, should not be dismissed and written off as carrying water for the owner. NH, I recognize that you must coddle to the owner, but in the future, you need to choose another way to do so. Nutting and nothing go together.
I have been an advocate of the Bucs blowing it up since mid-season last year. NH may not be the best GM to do so, but he has the long-term contract, thus, he will be the one who will have to execute that strategy. I can only hope that he achieves some success because like others, I want to see winning baseball again in Pittsburgh and don't envision such happening with the current cast of characters.
So --- let's just the obvious; at present, the Pirates are a mess.
Their young pitchers, at best, are doing okay. And, that may be okay if it looked like 2 of them may blossom into better than ok pitchers within the next year or so. Unfortunately, 3 years from now, it appears that most will be in Jeff Locke territory vs. being the next incantation of Doug Drabek or John Smiley.
Their younger hitters, Polanco and Bell, and underperforming compared to many players on other clubs, and there is no great indication that they will ever be anything other than flawed hitters. I will be a bit kinder to Moran because this is really his first full season. On the plus side, Meadows and (surprisingly) Diaz, both look like they could be major league bats, although neither appears to be an elite player.
Their older hitters are not aging all that well. Harrison is a below average hitter, Mercer never was more than an occasional streak hitter, and Cervelli has had very mixed results (and way too many injuries). Unfortunately, it appears that this year's addition, Dickerson, has sacrificed most of his power and rarely walks, which does not make him a good long-term option for LF. I agree with others that Marte is the best player on the team, and also agree that he has flaws that appear to be preventing him for regularly reaching elite status.
Management. I loath Hurdle. I know that players much more than managers make the team, however, Pittsburgh has had a string of poor string of managers that have coincided with the many years of losing. In the past, I have often praised NH. This year's blaming of the fans, however, should not be dismissed and written off as carrying water for the owner. NH, I recognize that you must coddle to the owner, but in the future, you need to choose another way to do so. Nutting and nothing go together.
I have been an advocate of the Bucs blowing it up since mid-season last year. NH may not be the best GM to do so, but he has the long-term contract, thus, he will be the one who will have to execute that strategy. I can only hope that he achieves some success because like others, I want to see winning baseball again in Pittsburgh and don't envision such happening with the current cast of characters.
What do you want to see...
604450585D310 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
In addition, Starling Marte was already in the Pirates system when Littlefield was fired and Huntington was brought in.
It could be seen that Huntington and his team played a role in his development, but they didn't identify or acquire him.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
In addition, Starling Marte was already in the Pirates system when Littlefield was fired and Huntington was brought in.
It could be seen that Huntington and his team played a role in his development, but they didn't identify or acquire him.