What do you want to see...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GermanTownship
What do you want to see...
Best case for the future of baseball is for the money that is currently being given to all teams, stops. Then, when some teams fold, maybe the league and the players will realize the golden goose has died. Shut baseball down for whatever how long it takes to get a salary cap. It has worked in football and hockey. Baseball has become a joke. Yes, teams like the Royals won the World Series a few years ago, but look at their record now. There's no way small market teams can compete with the Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, and Dodgers.
What do you want to see...
What I want to see is some elite talent. How can an organization continually manage to produce such underwhelming results with their draft picks and signings? Guys like Bell, Polanco and Taillon have been touted as high-end talent, yet what they produce falls short of that mark. They aren't horrible players, but they're not close to franchise-types.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
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OrlandoMerced
What do you want to see...
4763777F7A160 wrote:
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
Verlander, Morton and Cole all took huge leaps after being acquired by the Astros. I wouldn't use that example to argue that the pirates are sabotaging their players. McCutchen, for instance, has looked like the same washed up guy in SF that he did here in pittsburgh the last couple years.
That said, there are definite deficiencies in their development programs. Hitters aren't progressing and players are tending to stagnate at the top levels as opposed to continuing to grow. I don't think they have been able to identify the hitting traits that contribute to MLB production, McCutchen in his prime was the only guy I can remember that was able to turn on an inside pitch. The big adjustment they had to make with their sluggers (Bell & Polanco) was to move them off the plate. That's not the kind of adjustment that indicates long term development.
On the plus side, I think that Swaggerty is going to be really good and I think he's going to move quickly through the system, I don't think Meadows is a guy with holes in his swing like Polanco and Bell. I think one of Newman or Kramer are going to become solid major leaguers. I think Bell still has plenty of promise and they have a ton of pitchers that are contributing now that are pre-arb. I fear Polanco is an enigma, but he's not killing them, but they have to find players to occupy the prime lineup spots so that he isn't in the high leverage places.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
Verlander, Morton and Cole all took huge leaps after being acquired by the Astros. I wouldn't use that example to argue that the pirates are sabotaging their players. McCutchen, for instance, has looked like the same washed up guy in SF that he did here in pittsburgh the last couple years.
That said, there are definite deficiencies in their development programs. Hitters aren't progressing and players are tending to stagnate at the top levels as opposed to continuing to grow. I don't think they have been able to identify the hitting traits that contribute to MLB production, McCutchen in his prime was the only guy I can remember that was able to turn on an inside pitch. The big adjustment they had to make with their sluggers (Bell & Polanco) was to move them off the plate. That's not the kind of adjustment that indicates long term development.
On the plus side, I think that Swaggerty is going to be really good and I think he's going to move quickly through the system, I don't think Meadows is a guy with holes in his swing like Polanco and Bell. I think one of Newman or Kramer are going to become solid major leaguers. I think Bell still has plenty of promise and they have a ton of pitchers that are contributing now that are pre-arb. I fear Polanco is an enigma, but he's not killing them, but they have to find players to occupy the prime lineup spots so that he isn't in the high leverage places.
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ScottinMass
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:26 am
What do you want to see...
7256424A4F230 wrote: What I want to see is some elite talent. How can an organization continually manage to produce such underwhelming results with their draft picks and signings? Guys like Bell, Polanco and Taillon have been touted as high-end talent, yet what they produce falls short of that mark. They aren't horrible players, but they're not close to franchise-types.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
I tweeted this very same thing. With the exception of JHay a few years back, name a player that this organization and coaching staff have developed into an All-Star.
Hitters seem to lose their swings when they get to Pittsburgh, seems that the Pitchers are better when they leave Pittsburgh. What is going on?? It's frustrating as hell.
The message is old and stale, we need new leadership period!
That's what I want to see.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
I tweeted this very same thing. With the exception of JHay a few years back, name a player that this organization and coaching staff have developed into an All-Star.
Hitters seem to lose their swings when they get to Pittsburgh, seems that the Pitchers are better when they leave Pittsburgh. What is going on?? It's frustrating as hell.
The message is old and stale, we need new leadership period!
That's what I want to see.
What do you want to see...
0A3729242B212A082037262021450 wrote:
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
Verlander, Morton and Cole all took huge leaps after being acquired by the Astros. I wouldn't use that example to argue that the pirates are sabotaging their players. McCutchen, for instance, has looked like the same washed up guy in SF that he did here in pittsburgh the last couple years.
That said, there are definite deficiencies in their development programs. Hitters aren't progressing and players are tending to stagnate at the top levels as opposed to continuing to grow. I don't think they have been able to identify the hitting traits that contribute to MLB production, McCutchen in his prime was the only guy I can remember that was able to turn on an inside pitch. The big adjustment they had to make with their sluggers (Bell & Polanco) was to move them off the plate. That's not the kind of adjustment that indicates long term development.
On the plus side, I think that Swaggerty is going to be really good and I think he's going to move quickly through the system, I don't think Meadows is a guy with holes in his swing like Polanco and Bell. I think one of Newman or Kramer are going to become solid major leaguers. I think Bell still has plenty of promise and they have a ton of pitchers that are contributing now that are pre-arb. I fear Polanco is an enigma, but he's not killing them, but they have to find players to occupy the prime lineup spots so that he isn't in the high leverage places.
I hope you are right, however I don't think that is enough players unless Swaggerty comes up in a couple years. The team needs to replace Mercer, Harrison, maybe Bell or Polanco and Moran (I can't see him be long term at third based on defense this season). Not to mention pitching.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
Verlander, Morton and Cole all took huge leaps after being acquired by the Astros. I wouldn't use that example to argue that the pirates are sabotaging their players. McCutchen, for instance, has looked like the same washed up guy in SF that he did here in pittsburgh the last couple years.
That said, there are definite deficiencies in their development programs. Hitters aren't progressing and players are tending to stagnate at the top levels as opposed to continuing to grow. I don't think they have been able to identify the hitting traits that contribute to MLB production, McCutchen in his prime was the only guy I can remember that was able to turn on an inside pitch. The big adjustment they had to make with their sluggers (Bell & Polanco) was to move them off the plate. That's not the kind of adjustment that indicates long term development.
On the plus side, I think that Swaggerty is going to be really good and I think he's going to move quickly through the system, I don't think Meadows is a guy with holes in his swing like Polanco and Bell. I think one of Newman or Kramer are going to become solid major leaguers. I think Bell still has plenty of promise and they have a ton of pitchers that are contributing now that are pre-arb. I fear Polanco is an enigma, but he's not killing them, but they have to find players to occupy the prime lineup spots so that he isn't in the high leverage places.
I hope you are right, however I don't think that is enough players unless Swaggerty comes up in a couple years. The team needs to replace Mercer, Harrison, maybe Bell or Polanco and Moran (I can't see him be long term at third based on defense this season). Not to mention pitching.
What do you want to see...
08352B262923280A2235242223470 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
What do you want to see...
7A5E4A42472B0 wrote: Marte.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
Mentioning the guy who had a one-off appearance as an All-Star in 2016, a PED suspension the very next season, and an OPS of approximately .735 over 2017-2018 is a reach.
As for Houston's beneficial effect on Cole, it is no less damning to the Pirates that the Astros success includes Morton and Verlander. If you're satisfied that the Pirates simply can't be expected to provide the quality of coaching or development that Houston does I would suggest that you've set the bar too low for TBMTIB.
Are you serious? Marte averaged 5 WAR per season from 2013-2016.
With regard to Cole, I think the premise that he's suddenly a better pitcher than he ever has been needs to be challenged. He had a better season in 2015 than he's even having this year. Both his ERA+ and his FIP relative to his ERA were better in 2015. No doubt he's way better this year than the previous two seasons but things are starting to normalize a little for him this season. Anyway, I think it's a stretch to argue that Cole was sabotaged by Pirates coaching when he was pretty good in Pittsburgh.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
What do you want to see...
0723373F3A560 wrote: What I want to see is some elite talent. How can an organization continually manage to produce such underwhelming results with their draft picks and signings? Guys like Bell, Polanco and Taillon have been touted as high-end talent, yet what they produce falls short of that mark. They aren't horrible players, but they're not close to franchise-types.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
I agree and anyone could see that Cole was a stud and had the demeanor to be a star. It was just totally frustrating to watch what was happening with him. There needs to be a total revamping of this team. Huntington is becoming a joke and is probably looking for his next gig. Clint is done and just riding out his contract, and could care less. Problem is Nutting has no idea what he's doing when hiring a baseball GM, he needs lots of help. I keep seeing lots of people complaining about we're not spending enough money, but that's not the answer when you have a FO and a Manager that can't develop players and put the best team on the field to win. We're in another 20 plus year losing cycle unless big changes and positive changes don't happen soon.
What's most disconcerting to me is that we actually had an elite talent on the team for 5 years, and failed to recognize and nurture him. I'm talking about Gerrit Cole. That's a franchise-type #1 starter, and the Pirates coaching and development people shamefully managed to sabotage his ability enough so that to all appearances he was mediocre pitcher. This makes me wonder who among our current players is being weighed down by the anchor of the Pirates poor coaching and development so that we can't even recognize elite talent when we have it.
What I want to see is a Pirate player reach an elite level like Cutch did. Right now we don't even have a legit All-Star candidate.
I agree and anyone could see that Cole was a stud and had the demeanor to be a star. It was just totally frustrating to watch what was happening with him. There needs to be a total revamping of this team. Huntington is becoming a joke and is probably looking for his next gig. Clint is done and just riding out his contract, and could care less. Problem is Nutting has no idea what he's doing when hiring a baseball GM, he needs lots of help. I keep seeing lots of people complaining about we're not spending enough money, but that's not the answer when you have a FO and a Manager that can't develop players and put the best team on the field to win. We're in another 20 plus year losing cycle unless big changes and positive changes don't happen soon.
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ScottinMass
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:26 am
What do you want to see...
4F726C616E646F4D6572636564000 wrote: Marte.
I did lose track of Marte.
Still not a good track record of player development over the time this leadership group has been in place.
I did lose track of Marte.
Still not a good track record of player development over the time this leadership group has been in place.