415C787A74110 wrote: Everyone makes fun of the pirates because they're one of the worst 2-3 organizations in baseball. Not because they try to find talent in weird places, like India, Lithuania, or South Africa. They need to try harder or do better.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
What do you want to see...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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DemDog
What do you want to see...
2A232B3A344E0 wrote: Everyone makes fun of the pirates because they're one of the worst 2-3 organizations in baseball. Not because they try to find talent in weird places, like India, Lithuania, or South Africa. They need to try harder or do better.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
One question before you post less. Are you a diehard Pirate fan or just a fair weather fan. Your posts seem to show you are a diehard fan. I have been going to games for 60 consecutive years and I am just as disappointed as you and many others on how we have been lied to and conned by BMTIB thes last couple years. Think hard there are times when you do have something positive to say just say them if other guys get on you well, just say ok to that and let them be the naysayers and not you.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
One question before you post less. Are you a diehard Pirate fan or just a fair weather fan. Your posts seem to show you are a diehard fan. I have been going to games for 60 consecutive years and I am just as disappointed as you and many others on how we have been lied to and conned by BMTIB thes last couple years. Think hard there are times when you do have something positive to say just say them if other guys get on you well, just say ok to that and let them be the naysayers and not you.
What do you want to see...
1. Dmetz should keep posting.
2. Where the hell is Dognot?
3. SRod, in Indy on his low batting average rehab, is 1 for 1 and batting 1.000. Must be that clean Hoosier living.
2. Where the hell is Dognot?
3. SRod, in Indy on his low batting average rehab, is 1 for 1 and batting 1.000. Must be that clean Hoosier living.
What do you want to see...
675A4449464C47654D5A4B4D4C280 wrote: I think the important thing that we've seen since this thread was created was Bell and Polanco looking like major leaguers again. I think if those two prove to be competent major league starters, that changes the foundation for 2019. Looking ahead to next year salary commitment and the abundance of players in their pre-arb years capable of playing major roles, you really have to wonder how they plan on improving. By letting Mercer and Sean Rod walk, and finding a home for Nova and Freese this could be the 25-man roster (I made some guesses on Feliz and Dickerson):
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Harrison $10,500,000
SS Newman $550,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Taillon $600,000
2P Musgrove $600,000
3P Williams $600,000
4P Kuhl $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Dickerson $8,500,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Kramer/Moroff $550,000
BN Osuna/Frazier $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $62,833,334
I look at this roster, and I see the most glaring need at the top of the rotation. I think Glasnow will need another year in the bullpen before trying again with him in the rotation. If I'm NH I'm keeping an eye on the Hamels trade market, if it comes down enough, maybe you can can make some kind of deal with Hayes and Mitchell. Also, I'd also like to see what would be necessary to get one of the Mets' aces. I would make Keller available in a trade for one of the Mets' aces. Having Williams, Kingham, Taillon and Musgrove makes Keller moveable.
You realize to get one of the Muts top pitchers; its Keller; Meadows plus right? I have been saying this franchise has needed to add a top end guy to the rotation. I have been saying we need two rotation guys.
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Harrison $10,500,000
SS Newman $550,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Taillon $600,000
2P Musgrove $600,000
3P Williams $600,000
4P Kuhl $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Dickerson $8,500,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Kramer/Moroff $550,000
BN Osuna/Frazier $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $62,833,334
I look at this roster, and I see the most glaring need at the top of the rotation. I think Glasnow will need another year in the bullpen before trying again with him in the rotation. If I'm NH I'm keeping an eye on the Hamels trade market, if it comes down enough, maybe you can can make some kind of deal with Hayes and Mitchell. Also, I'd also like to see what would be necessary to get one of the Mets' aces. I would make Keller available in a trade for one of the Mets' aces. Having Williams, Kingham, Taillon and Musgrove makes Keller moveable.
You realize to get one of the Muts top pitchers; its Keller; Meadows plus right? I have been saying this franchise has needed to add a top end guy to the rotation. I have been saying we need two rotation guys.
What do you want to see...
Why would they trade for the Mets aces? they are arb eligible next year and would actually have to pay them money they are worth. I think the Mets are nuts for trading these two, neither one of them are FA until 2021 and 2022.
No way i give up Keller! he's your deGrom in two years hopefully, but a ton cheaper.
No way i give up Keller! he's your deGrom in two years hopefully, but a ton cheaper.
What do you want to see...
4B4C5A525C4B0C00795E54585055175A5654390 wrote: I agree with your points VA. To me, once a fan, always a fan. We may be critical fans. We may be frustrated and point out the negative things that bother us but we're still fans. Otherwise we wouldn't care or even discuss it.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
This is exactly it!
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
This is exactly it!
What do you want to see...
35342F3E28686F5B0 wrote: I agree with your points VA. To me, once a fan, always a fan. We may be critical fans. We may be frustrated and point out the negative things that bother us but we're still fans. Otherwise we wouldn't care or even discuss it.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
This is exactly it!
sometimes I wonder about how the Washington Senators marketed the team in the 1950's. Was it we are working on the plan and just be patient? We're just a couple players away?
I feel like the Pirates approach everything like most fans are teenagers (as I remember reading baseball magazines in the 1960's and 70's were articles pretty much gave every team at least some sort of chance at pennant if things broke right and every team was heading in the right direction). As someone now in their 60's I find the statements that the Pirates make to be insulting.
2016 was a bridge year? At least it got a name. Team is afraid to say that 2017 and 2018 are rebuilding or whatever they want to call it. I honestly think that the front office statements and actions have led to a larger decline in attendance in Pittsburgh than anything else (record on field would be second).
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
This is exactly it!
sometimes I wonder about how the Washington Senators marketed the team in the 1950's. Was it we are working on the plan and just be patient? We're just a couple players away?
I feel like the Pirates approach everything like most fans are teenagers (as I remember reading baseball magazines in the 1960's and 70's were articles pretty much gave every team at least some sort of chance at pennant if things broke right and every team was heading in the right direction). As someone now in their 60's I find the statements that the Pirates make to be insulting.
2016 was a bridge year? At least it got a name. Team is afraid to say that 2017 and 2018 are rebuilding or whatever they want to call it. I honestly think that the front office statements and actions have led to a larger decline in attendance in Pittsburgh than anything else (record on field would be second).
What do you want to see...
I believe a good summation for 2017 based on management's performance would be the "We don't care year". With respect to 2018, perhaps it would be "We forgot what it is like to care year".
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
What do you want to see...
002C2423280F382E3E4D0 wrote: I believe a good summation for 2017 based on management's performance would be the "We don't care year". With respect to 2018, perhaps it would be "We forgot what it is like to care year".
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
This is exactly or very close to the lineup I was seeing for 2019. It's not like there will be any quality adds with experience. The rotation might scare me even more.
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
This is exactly or very close to the lineup I was seeing for 2019. It's not like there will be any quality adds with experience. The rotation might scare me even more.
What do you want to see...
3324292D2D29232B73400 wrote: Why would they trade for the Mets aces? they are arb eligible next year and would actually have to pay them money they are worth. I think the Mets are nuts for trading these two, neither one of them are FA until 2021 and 2022.
No way i give up Keller! he's your deGrom in two years hopefully, but a ton cheaper.
Well, people were saying that about Glasnow. He was going to be our savior. I'm still waiting for our savior to show some flash.
No way i give up Keller! he's your deGrom in two years hopefully, but a ton cheaper.
Well, people were saying that about Glasnow. He was going to be our savior. I'm still waiting for our savior to show some flash.