By the time the Pirates develop a Clayton Kershaw, he'll be gone faster than Gerrit Cole.
And, we will never once shop for a Mookie Betts.
So much for following The Dodgers Model.
Outlook and age
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Outlook and age
546176767D4476767D7A76130 wrote: By the time the Pirates develop a Clayton Kershaw, he'll be gone faster than Gerrit Cole.
And, we will never once shop for a Mookie Betts.
So much for following The Dodgers Model.
You missed my point on the Dodgers.
What I was trying to convey is that the Dodgers consistently draft and develop elite players even though they typically are drafting long after the Pirates have made their picks. The Pirates must do a better job of identifying and developing elite prospects
I made no mention of competing with the Dodgers financially.
We all know that is not possible even if Scrooge opened up his purse strings
And, we will never once shop for a Mookie Betts.
So much for following The Dodgers Model.
You missed my point on the Dodgers.
What I was trying to convey is that the Dodgers consistently draft and develop elite players even though they typically are drafting long after the Pirates have made their picks. The Pirates must do a better job of identifying and developing elite prospects
I made no mention of competing with the Dodgers financially.
We all know that is not possible even if Scrooge opened up his purse strings
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Outlook and age
624F42535445521211200 wrote: I think our ages have something to do with how we view the Pirates situation but, frankly, we all likely agree that while we realistically can't expect the Pirates to compete every year, we'd like them to be competitive more often than not. Tampa and Oakland, two similar franchises, prove it can be done.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
I agree Doc. I think we need to wait and see whether or not Cherington will succeed in rebuilding the organization. But we already have a long track record on Nutting. He has proven he won't spend. The time is never going to right. [highlight]He's not going to spend. [/highlight]
Not unless he had a guarantee that he'd make more money by spending. He's risk-averse to his core. That's why the Pirates fate falls entirely on Cherington, or any GM who runs the organization in the future. He'll get no help from Nutting.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
I agree Doc. I think we need to wait and see whether or not Cherington will succeed in rebuilding the organization. But we already have a long track record on Nutting. He has proven he won't spend. The time is never going to right. [highlight]He's not going to spend. [/highlight]
Not unless he had a guarantee that he'd make more money by spending. He's risk-averse to his core. That's why the Pirates fate falls entirely on Cherington, or any GM who runs the organization in the future. He'll get no help from Nutting.
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ArnoldRothstein
Outlook and age
"Not unless he had a guarantee that he'd make more money by spending. He's risk-averse to his core."
I've long thought that their budgeting process is unrealistic, even extending into the McClatchy era. During the NH era, it seems like the they were pretty stuck in the Liriano/Happ/Nova range - something under $40 million, and three years, and then their model just skyrockets the risk in the fourth year.* I think one of the surest signs of change would be if they sprung for that fourth year to bring in a good player.
Note: I'm talking about open market negotiations, not extensions where they're trading years in exchange for discounts.
I've long thought that their budgeting process is unrealistic, even extending into the McClatchy era. During the NH era, it seems like the they were pretty stuck in the Liriano/Happ/Nova range - something under $40 million, and three years, and then their model just skyrockets the risk in the fourth year.* I think one of the surest signs of change would be if they sprung for that fourth year to bring in a good player.
Note: I'm talking about open market negotiations, not extensions where they're trading years in exchange for discounts.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Outlook and age
487B6766656D5B667D617A7D6C6067090 wrote: "Not unless he had a guarantee that he'd make more money by spending. He's risk-averse to his core."
I've long thought that their budgeting process is unrealistic, even extending into the McClatchy era. During the NH era, it seems like the they were pretty stuck in the Liriano/Happ/Nova range - something under $40 million, and three years, and then their model just skyrockets the risk in the fourth year.* [highlight]I think one of the surest signs of change would be if they sprung for that fourth year to bring in a good player.[/highlight]
Note: I'm talking about open market negotiations, not extensions where they're trading years in exchange for discounts.
That would be a nice change indeed, but one I'm not going to expect. I imagine Nutting is looking at the Polanco contract and pulling his hair out as he pays for ineptitude. In my mind, I see Nutting viewing his players as common laborers who are all easily replaceable, like those who work for his newspapers.
I've long thought that their budgeting process is unrealistic, even extending into the McClatchy era. During the NH era, it seems like the they were pretty stuck in the Liriano/Happ/Nova range - something under $40 million, and three years, and then their model just skyrockets the risk in the fourth year.* [highlight]I think one of the surest signs of change would be if they sprung for that fourth year to bring in a good player.[/highlight]
Note: I'm talking about open market negotiations, not extensions where they're trading years in exchange for discounts.
That would be a nice change indeed, but one I'm not going to expect. I imagine Nutting is looking at the Polanco contract and pulling his hair out as he pays for ineptitude. In my mind, I see Nutting viewing his players as common laborers who are all easily replaceable, like those who work for his newspapers.
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WildwoodDave2
Outlook and age
627F5B5957320 wrote:
I don't know, I just find it interesting that there is such angst over the place we are in now. It makes sense to me given my life's experience with the Pirates. So I was wondering why some are so down on the Pirates and if age had something to do with it.
I'm not sure about age, but there is an enormous amount of cynicism surrounding this franchise that is both expected and probably justified given the state of the game and its economic structure. Having the appropriate perspective for this club is an acute requirement, since it's unlike most of the rest of the teams in the majors. Whether that fact raises or lowers expectations is for each fan to decide.
After Cam Bonifay's good intentions but bad incompetence, followed by Dave Littlefield's largely opaque but mainly miserly intentions and bad incompetence, the early Huntington years put us on a path that saw its crescendo end in extremely unfair one-game playoff losses and a subsequent loss of faith in the system. The national media said, "The Pirates are back," except we weren't, thanks to a ridiculous, one-game play-in where you'd better start an ace pitcher having a career season or you'll be bounced from the postseason just like that even though you racked up 90+ wins.
Add in 2012's (and to a lesser extent, 2011's) inexplicable collapse, and there were a lot of rugs being pulled out from under Pirates fans. That takes a toll. The mid-decade team certainly had its warts, but Huntington did build a team that deserved better than getting Wacha'd, Arrieta'd and Bumgarner'd in three straight years.
In my view, the time for real pessimism was after they failed to make the postseason in 2016. For a variety of reasons, Huntington sat on his hands while the team went nowhere. Now that we're in a full-blown re-build, I'd say this is definitely a time for optimism. Cherington may put the Pirates' farm system back into the top 5 by the time he's done wheeling and dealing. But of course, we've seen this before. Huntington re-built the moonscape Littlefield left in his wake, and that was an accomplishment. But the fly in the ointment is always getting a top 5 or 10 farm system to graduate out major league winners. Not just stars here or there like Bonds or McCutchen. A conveyor belt of talent routinely filling needs on the big club. We've been looking for that since Pete Peterson took Joe L. Brown's pipeline and sold it for 1979.
So I'm cautiously optimistic about Cherington but sagely pessimistic about the Pirates' chances of ever developing the talent they rotate through the farm. We older geezers have perhaps seen too many Jose Guillens, Chad Hermansons, Bryan Bullingtons and Gregory Polancos flame out to get too excited about individual prospects.
Every expansion team since 1979 has been to a World Series. The Blue Jays (1977) have been to a World Series. The Pirates? They have a wild-card win against a sore-armed Cueto. The Pirates generally don't put up, so they just need to shut up and win a playoff series. Not experiencing this singular thing in 41 years has driven us insane.
Loved the content and style. That bolded sentence is a fantastic and eloquent statement on the last 20+ years of Pirates baseball. Nice writing!
I think your very first point is one that I really want to give space for. There are certainly reasons for negativity and cynicism. I don't share it, but I get it. And I think it's totally justified even though I don't share it.
There is Weenie and then there is the rest of us.
I don't know, I just find it interesting that there is such angst over the place we are in now. It makes sense to me given my life's experience with the Pirates. So I was wondering why some are so down on the Pirates and if age had something to do with it.
I'm not sure about age, but there is an enormous amount of cynicism surrounding this franchise that is both expected and probably justified given the state of the game and its economic structure. Having the appropriate perspective for this club is an acute requirement, since it's unlike most of the rest of the teams in the majors. Whether that fact raises or lowers expectations is for each fan to decide.
After Cam Bonifay's good intentions but bad incompetence, followed by Dave Littlefield's largely opaque but mainly miserly intentions and bad incompetence, the early Huntington years put us on a path that saw its crescendo end in extremely unfair one-game playoff losses and a subsequent loss of faith in the system. The national media said, "The Pirates are back," except we weren't, thanks to a ridiculous, one-game play-in where you'd better start an ace pitcher having a career season or you'll be bounced from the postseason just like that even though you racked up 90+ wins.
Add in 2012's (and to a lesser extent, 2011's) inexplicable collapse, and there were a lot of rugs being pulled out from under Pirates fans. That takes a toll. The mid-decade team certainly had its warts, but Huntington did build a team that deserved better than getting Wacha'd, Arrieta'd and Bumgarner'd in three straight years.
In my view, the time for real pessimism was after they failed to make the postseason in 2016. For a variety of reasons, Huntington sat on his hands while the team went nowhere. Now that we're in a full-blown re-build, I'd say this is definitely a time for optimism. Cherington may put the Pirates' farm system back into the top 5 by the time he's done wheeling and dealing. But of course, we've seen this before. Huntington re-built the moonscape Littlefield left in his wake, and that was an accomplishment. But the fly in the ointment is always getting a top 5 or 10 farm system to graduate out major league winners. Not just stars here or there like Bonds or McCutchen. A conveyor belt of talent routinely filling needs on the big club. We've been looking for that since Pete Peterson took Joe L. Brown's pipeline and sold it for 1979.
So I'm cautiously optimistic about Cherington but sagely pessimistic about the Pirates' chances of ever developing the talent they rotate through the farm. We older geezers have perhaps seen too many Jose Guillens, Chad Hermansons, Bryan Bullingtons and Gregory Polancos flame out to get too excited about individual prospects.
Every expansion team since 1979 has been to a World Series. The Blue Jays (1977) have been to a World Series. The Pirates? They have a wild-card win against a sore-armed Cueto. The Pirates generally don't put up, so they just need to shut up and win a playoff series. Not experiencing this singular thing in 41 years has driven us insane.
Loved the content and style. That bolded sentence is a fantastic and eloquent statement on the last 20+ years of Pirates baseball. Nice writing!
I think your very first point is one that I really want to give space for. There are certainly reasons for negativity and cynicism. I don't share it, but I get it. And I think it's totally justified even though I don't share it.
There is Weenie and then there is the rest of us.
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johnfluharty
Outlook and age
I was 9 in 79 so I guess that makes me 'old'. Willie was on the down-side but still became my favorite, along with Parker and Tekulve and - well, just about anyone on that team. Moreno, Jackson, Bibby - all those names bring real smiles to my face.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
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Bobster21
Outlook and age
4C494E48404A534E4754525F260 wrote: I was 9 in 79 so I guess that makes me 'old'. Willie was on the down-side but still became my favorite, along with Parker and Tekulve and - well, just about anyone on that team. Moreno, Jackson, Bibby - all those names bring real smiles to my face.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
My Baltimore friends were stunned that Pirate pitching held the Orioles to 2 runs in the final 3 games in 1979. The Lumber Company was so well known that Buc pitching was overlooked. The starters were solid but unspectacular but the BP was outstanding with Teke, Jackson and Romo. And Bibby started the season as a good reliever and finished it as a good starter.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
My Baltimore friends were stunned that Pirate pitching held the Orioles to 2 runs in the final 3 games in 1979. The Lumber Company was so well known that Buc pitching was overlooked. The starters were solid but unspectacular but the BP was outstanding with Teke, Jackson and Romo. And Bibby started the season as a good reliever and finished it as a good starter.
Outlook and age
597479686F7E69292A1B0 wrote: I was 9 in 79 so I guess that makes me 'old'. Willie was on the down-side but still became my favorite, along with Parker and Tekulve and - well, just about anyone on that team. Moreno, Jackson, Bibby - all those names bring real smiles to my face.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
My Baltimore friends were stunned that Pirate pitching held the Orioles to 2 runs in the final 3 games in 1979. The Lumber Company was so well known that Buc pitching was overlooked. The starters were solid but unspectacular but the BP was outstanding with Teke, Jackson and Romo. And Bibby started the season as a good reliever and finished it as a good starter.
The 1979 Bucs were a great all around team. Unfortunately for me, I spent the entire season in New Jersey so did not get to see many games although I did get to at least one game when I visited home. I looked up some stats: the Bucs were second in homers with 148 and first in runs scored. Pitching was third in ERA. I think they had a lot of quality pitchers who were capable of pitching great games at times. Blyleven and Candaleria were only ones to start more than 25 games. The Bucs were 10thin complete games which may have been the lowest rank in that category for any World Series winning team to that point.
Littlefield and Huntington have left me way to jaded to be optimistic, but Cherington has me feeling a little hopeful. I like that he is adding talent at the bottom. I just need to see it develop, and I will not hold my breath waiting for Nutting to go on a spending spree.
My Baltimore friends were stunned that Pirate pitching held the Orioles to 2 runs in the final 3 games in 1979. The Lumber Company was so well known that Buc pitching was overlooked. The starters were solid but unspectacular but the BP was outstanding with Teke, Jackson and Romo. And Bibby started the season as a good reliever and finished it as a good starter.
The 1979 Bucs were a great all around team. Unfortunately for me, I spent the entire season in New Jersey so did not get to see many games although I did get to at least one game when I visited home. I looked up some stats: the Bucs were second in homers with 148 and first in runs scored. Pitching was third in ERA. I think they had a lot of quality pitchers who were capable of pitching great games at times. Blyleven and Candaleria were only ones to start more than 25 games. The Bucs were 10thin complete games which may have been the lowest rank in that category for any World Series winning team to that point.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Outlook and age
My first Pirate memories were the awesome 80s . . . Ken Oberkfell, SammyK (:)), coke-slinging Pirate Parrot, etc. My HS time had the good 90s teams, so that was cool.