Julian,
I see your case, and to some extent I agree.
Let's face it. To think that Cherrington and this Shelton guy will be much better than their predecessors is on the naive side.
That Penguins guy? I'm not even sure why.....forget it.
It's just as easy to think that they'll do much worse.
Nothing about their backgrounds indicates to me that a significant difference over the long term an be counted on.
Wash, rinse, repeat, just with new name tags on the laundry. The good news is that 'repeat' would include some postseason runs, just not the outcomes we want.
We surely hope that they do well, but fans of the other 29 clubs have hope, too. Some more than others.
Top Pirates at their position
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
Top Pirates at their position
4D534550474C240 wrote: Open a spot for Luke Maile.
By the way, George Grantham might make the Top 5 Pirate second basemen too. Maz, Johnnie Ray?, Stennett ?, who else?
Freddy Sanchez and his .344 Batting crown might get some love.
By the way, George Grantham might make the Top 5 Pirate second basemen too. Maz, Johnnie Ray?, Stennett ?, who else?
Freddy Sanchez and his .344 Batting crown might get some love.
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DemDog
Top Pirates at their position
Okay, you guys asked it from this old fart. Here is my list
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
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WildwoodDave
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Top Pirates at their position
416068416A62050 wrote: Okay, you guys asked it from this old fart. Here is my list
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
Love their full namesPossum- good job
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
Love their full namesPossum- good job
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Bobster21
Top Pirates at their position
0E3B2C2C271E2C2C27202C490 wrote: Julian,
I see your case, and to some extent I agree.
Let's face it. To think that Cherrington and this Shelton guy will be much better than their predecessors is on the naive side.
That Penguins guy? I'm not even sure why.....forget it.
It's just as easy to think that they'll do much worse.
Nothing about their backgrounds indicates to me that a significant difference over the long term an be counted on.
Wash, rinse, repeat, just with new name tags on the laundry. The good news is that 'repeat' would include some postseason runs, just not the outcomes we want.
We surely hope that they do well, but fans of the other 29 clubs have hope, too. Some more than others.
I think the ceiling for BC and Shelton is to do a better job of drafting and developing and thereby assemble a better team than NH and Hurdle despite the same severe financial constraints. Unfortunately, even doing so will leave a significant gap in talent between the Pirates and their top competitors. No team develops adequate talent at every position at the same time. And the Pirates don't pay to keep their better players so they trade them with time left on their contracts to increase their trade value. So when it takes 3 to 4 years to develop a solid prospect, he arrives as some of the previously developed players are leaving. And when holes are left, the Pirates don't fill them with free agents or by trading for productive players who come with market value contracts. So no matter how much better BC and Shelton might do than their predecessors, they will always be at the disadvantage of trying to get by on the cheap. Just as NH and Hurdle had to do in 1996 after 98 wins, record attendance, the promise to spend when the time was right, only to have to fill holes with Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong. I'm optimistic that BC and Shelton will do better. But I don't see that being enough under the Nutting policy of not spending.
I see your case, and to some extent I agree.
Let's face it. To think that Cherrington and this Shelton guy will be much better than their predecessors is on the naive side.
That Penguins guy? I'm not even sure why.....forget it.
It's just as easy to think that they'll do much worse.
Nothing about their backgrounds indicates to me that a significant difference over the long term an be counted on.
Wash, rinse, repeat, just with new name tags on the laundry. The good news is that 'repeat' would include some postseason runs, just not the outcomes we want.
We surely hope that they do well, but fans of the other 29 clubs have hope, too. Some more than others.
I think the ceiling for BC and Shelton is to do a better job of drafting and developing and thereby assemble a better team than NH and Hurdle despite the same severe financial constraints. Unfortunately, even doing so will leave a significant gap in talent between the Pirates and their top competitors. No team develops adequate talent at every position at the same time. And the Pirates don't pay to keep their better players so they trade them with time left on their contracts to increase their trade value. So when it takes 3 to 4 years to develop a solid prospect, he arrives as some of the previously developed players are leaving. And when holes are left, the Pirates don't fill them with free agents or by trading for productive players who come with market value contracts. So no matter how much better BC and Shelton might do than their predecessors, they will always be at the disadvantage of trying to get by on the cheap. Just as NH and Hurdle had to do in 1996 after 98 wins, record attendance, the promise to spend when the time was right, only to have to fill holes with Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong. I'm optimistic that BC and Shelton will do better. But I don't see that being enough under the Nutting policy of not spending.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Top Pirates at their position
What challenges Cherrington has, Huntington had. Same is said of the opportunities each had.
The thing that remains to be seen is whether Cherrington will capitalize on the opportunites more often, and whether he'll be able to overcome challenges more successfully.
One thing that could help is if BC is more highly-regarded among peers and players- which, I wouldn't know. If he is, then maybe some better trades and pickups might find their way to the Burgh.
So far, I've seen no indication of that, though.
I'm not counting on it. Unless he's truly more gifted, I'd expect about the same in the long run. We have the hope that we'll see better results. What else can you do?
The thing that remains to be seen is whether Cherrington will capitalize on the opportunites more often, and whether he'll be able to overcome challenges more successfully.
One thing that could help is if BC is more highly-regarded among peers and players- which, I wouldn't know. If he is, then maybe some better trades and pickups might find their way to the Burgh.
So far, I've seen no indication of that, though.
I'm not counting on it. Unless he's truly more gifted, I'd expect about the same in the long run. We have the hope that we'll see better results. What else can you do?
Top Pirates at their position
Hard to disagree with your [and so many other long time fans including my] views on the teams problems because evidently the bucks really do stop at the top.
So how do the TB Rays get things done. One site states their 2020 payroll estimated at $69.4 mil. oneobvious answer is the quality of their scouts, managers/coaches, gm, etc. So I hope the new Pitts regime can and will do better than the last guys.
One other thought, among many, I've watched, read, listened to Baseball what seems like forever and even when the team was less rhan magnificent I could, and still can, jump out of my chair for a great play. Other than actually winning, I can still fantasize myself making that all-out diving catch then going Maz the next inning.
So how do the TB Rays get things done. One site states their 2020 payroll estimated at $69.4 mil. oneobvious answer is the quality of their scouts, managers/coaches, gm, etc. So I hope the new Pitts regime can and will do better than the last guys.
One other thought, among many, I've watched, read, listened to Baseball what seems like forever and even when the team was less rhan magnificent I could, and still can, jump out of my chair for a great play. Other than actually winning, I can still fantasize myself making that all-out diving catch then going Maz the next inning.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Top Pirates at their position
I don't follow the Rays enough to make a guess at that. However, being a Pirates fan, we know ONE way they've managed to do well:
They take advantage of ***numbskull baseball executives*** when the opportunities are handed to them on silver platters (not naming any names.)
I would agree- it must be scouting and personnel evaluation.
One thing I've heard of the Rays in past years is- they somehow found the way to get and develop guys who had strengths in areas that were able to neutralize rosters like the Yankees and Red Sox had at the time.
I don't know if their GM has been good at maximizing return on the guys he's sent to other teams.
I think they've been more consistent in following their approach more than Huntington seemed to be, especially toward the end. Seemed to me that he'd go halfway in one direction, then decide to go in another direction. When that happens, you get stuck in the middle. Or, worse.
They take advantage of ***numbskull baseball executives*** when the opportunities are handed to them on silver platters (not naming any names.)
I would agree- it must be scouting and personnel evaluation.
One thing I've heard of the Rays in past years is- they somehow found the way to get and develop guys who had strengths in areas that were able to neutralize rosters like the Yankees and Red Sox had at the time.
I don't know if their GM has been good at maximizing return on the guys he's sent to other teams.
I think they've been more consistent in following their approach more than Huntington seemed to be, especially toward the end. Seemed to me that he'd go halfway in one direction, then decide to go in another direction. When that happens, you get stuck in the middle. Or, worse.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Top Pirates at their position
59787059727A1D0 wrote: Okay, you guys asked it from this old fart. Here is my list
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
That's a heck of an all-time lineup, Possum. Perhaps only a handful of other franchises can put up a better one. The Yankees, Athletics, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cardinals, and Giants for certain. After those, the Tigers, Indians, Braves, and Reds can make a case. But it would be interesting to put together the all-time team for each franchise. Should we do it?
LHSP - Arley Wilbur Cooper
RHSP - Charles Benjamin "Babe" Adams
Closer - Elroy Leon "The Baron of the Bullpen" Face
1B - Wilver Dornell "Pops" Stargell
2B - William Stanley "Maz" Mazeroski
SS - John Peter "Honus" Wagner aka "The Flying Dutchman"
3B - Harold Joseph "Pie" Traynor
LR - Ralph McPherran Kiner
CF - Andrew Stefan "Cutch" McCutchen
RF - Roberto Clemente Walker aka "The Great One"
Some old-timers might think I have slighted two old-time Pirate HOF outfielders in the Waner Bros but alas, Paul was a RF and there is no way he could beat out The Great One. As for Lloyd Waner, he was a CF but he was not the 5 tool player that Cutch is.
This is indeed a tough decision to name the best of the Pirates with so many younger and exciting guys that a lot of us have seen over the years. It is for that reason that I have been a Pirates fan for so many years. I got to see some of the best, and I have been told stories about many of the old-time players. Today we fans need to embrace the players who have done wonderful and exciting things in our lifetimes.
You might say that being a Pirate fan is like a religion to me.
That's a heck of an all-time lineup, Possum. Perhaps only a handful of other franchises can put up a better one. The Yankees, Athletics, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cardinals, and Giants for certain. After those, the Tigers, Indians, Braves, and Reds can make a case. But it would be interesting to put together the all-time team for each franchise. Should we do it?
Top Pirates at their position
That's a good idea Doc. i wouldn't mind taking a stab at a couple teams.
One question though - what would you do with teams that have relocated through the years? for example, the Dodgers - would you have 2 teams? one from Brooklyn and one from LA?
The Athletics would be interesting, having played in 3 separate cities (although the KC version would stink, or they would be version 2 of the Yankees), Same with the Braves, although the Boston version was dreck, for the most part.
How about the brewers and Astros? 2 teams that switched leagues? something to ponder
One question though - what would you do with teams that have relocated through the years? for example, the Dodgers - would you have 2 teams? one from Brooklyn and one from LA?
The Athletics would be interesting, having played in 3 separate cities (although the KC version would stink, or they would be version 2 of the Yankees), Same with the Braves, although the Boston version was dreck, for the most part.
How about the brewers and Astros? 2 teams that switched leagues? something to ponder