032524332535460 wrote: What I want to see is a commitment to a plan. Not just moving veterans for prospects who will in turn be moved for prospects after a few years on a Pirate team that is too willing to leave holes unfilled while settling for mediocrity or below average. If a solid core is built, then TBMTIB must find a few impact players to get the team over the hump. The 2013 team competed but settled for a 1B situation of Garrett Jones and Gaby Sanchez and didn't want to replace Clint Barmes. The 2014 team tried to get by at 1B with Ike Davis and Sanchez as well as Locke and Morton in the rotation. The 2015 team knew they had a problem with Locke and Morton but wouldn't upgrade and had a major problem with Alvarez playing 1B.
So when I see players traded, acquired or promoted, I want it to be part of an overall plan to compete for a championship. Just acquiring players who may be productive or have potential isn't enough if the team fails to address other glaring weaknesses that will prevent a serious run. It seems they never make a complete effort to build a great team. Fans have become conditioned to talk about "winning the trade" instead of winning in the post-season. I want to see fans get excited about a complete effort by TBMTIB.
great post.
Yeah and I agree with Bobster. Frankly, I’m beginning to see this turn into Dave Littlefield all over again. Not really building anythibg, just trying to pretend by filling spots with washed up vets.
The problem is, even a well run organization may not sniff a WS for a generation. To actually be a legitimate contender is an amazing thing, something to pursue with everything you’ve got to make the team the very best it can be. 98 wins needs to become 99 wins, and 99 needs to be shooting for 100.
Youve got to do everything you can. That’s why 2015-2016 is so frustrating: that team had the potential; but the FO and some fans basically said “98 wins is plenty good enough”. No. It’s not good enough if you could Have won more games.
It’s still incredible to think about how they butchered their chance.
What do you want to see...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What do you want to see...
I don't understand why anyone wouldnt want NH to rebuild this team. He's an excellent trader when selling to rebuild talent:
2008: Nady and Damasco Marte -> Jose tabata, Ross ohlendorf, karstens, Dan Mcutchen
Jason Bay for nothing.
2009: mclouth > gorkys Hernandez, Jeff Locke, Morton
nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett > lastings millidge, Joel hanrahan
Adam laroche > argenis Diaz , Hunter Strickland
Jack Wilson and Ian Snell > Jeff Clement, Ronny cedeno, and 3 minor league pitchers I had to listen to prospect lovers talk about for years before they all busted.
Freddy Sanchez > Tim Alderson
2008: Nady and Damasco Marte -> Jose tabata, Ross ohlendorf, karstens, Dan Mcutchen
Jason Bay for nothing.
2009: mclouth > gorkys Hernandez, Jeff Locke, Morton
nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett > lastings millidge, Joel hanrahan
Adam laroche > argenis Diaz , Hunter Strickland
Jack Wilson and Ian Snell > Jeff Clement, Ronny cedeno, and 3 minor league pitchers I had to listen to prospect lovers talk about for years before they all busted.
Freddy Sanchez > Tim Alderson
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Bobster21
What do you want to see...
Don't forget Francisco Liriano, Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire for the legendary Drew Hutchison.
What do you want to see...
5E5253080108000D0A150F380 wrote: Both of you have good ideas about using Osuna more, calling up Newman and to figure what Kang has to offer down the road. I think a big thing the Pirates must determine ,is which starting pitchers will be in the rotation in a year or two. If you trade Nova you have the remaining 4 starters. Brault or Glasnow could start, as well as Kingham, Holmes, Eppler, Hearn, Keller. That is 11 possible starting pitchers, and you don’t want to trade or release them before they reach their potential. A couple of them could be long men out of the bullpen, some may end up being traded, and you hope that the pitchers retained become the more elite of the group. It will be interesting to see how the current starters, and the pitchers on the horizon continue to develop.
At some point in 2019, i would like to see this rotation.
Kingham
Glasnow
Keller
Hearn
One of Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Musgrove
Hitting wise, i dont think you need to do a complete rebuild here, but there needs to be some changes and i think it starts with putting Newman and Kramer in this lineup soon to get them some experience for full time gigs in 2019.
#1 thing i want, the person responsible for player S-Rod 3-games in a row, the person responsible for playing Polanco over Meadows, this person needs fired! These lineups are a joke. if it's not Hurdle, then NH needs to be held responsible.
At some point in 2019, i would like to see this rotation.
Kingham
Glasnow
Keller
Hearn
One of Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Musgrove
Hitting wise, i dont think you need to do a complete rebuild here, but there needs to be some changes and i think it starts with putting Newman and Kramer in this lineup soon to get them some experience for full time gigs in 2019.
#1 thing i want, the person responsible for player S-Rod 3-games in a row, the person responsible for playing Polanco over Meadows, this person needs fired! These lineups are a joke. if it's not Hurdle, then NH needs to be held responsible.
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OrlandoMerced
What do you want to see...
I have a lot of disjointed thoughts on the subject.
I would like to see them move the veterans, Harrison, Freese, SeanRod and Nova. To be replaced with Kramer, Newman Luplow and Kingham.
I then would like to see them make some bold moves with their massive collection of pre-arbitration guys. Even if they were to move Nova they would have Taillon, Williams, Musgrove, Kuhl and Kingham in the rotation, with Brault and Glasnow in the bullpen and Keller in AAA. That's a pretty strong place to be, even when the rest of your good pitching prospects are only in the lower levels.
I think the focus is on improving the lineup. How do you leverage the farm system, current players under control and financial resources to improve. Looking at the 2019 Spotrac for this team, they could conceivably be slightly better than 2018 for less than $50M.
I would like to see them move the veterans, Harrison, Freese, SeanRod and Nova. To be replaced with Kramer, Newman Luplow and Kingham.
I then would like to see them make some bold moves with their massive collection of pre-arbitration guys. Even if they were to move Nova they would have Taillon, Williams, Musgrove, Kuhl and Kingham in the rotation, with Brault and Glasnow in the bullpen and Keller in AAA. That's a pretty strong place to be, even when the rest of your good pitching prospects are only in the lower levels.
I think the focus is on improving the lineup. How do you leverage the farm system, current players under control and financial resources to improve. Looking at the 2019 Spotrac for this team, they could conceivably be slightly better than 2018 for less than $50M.
What do you want to see...
While I recognize that few contending teams (this list does not include the Pirates) have yet to go out an ad much talent as of yet, the Bucs need to make sure that they are at the table with potential options for team's that are interested in adding players for the stretch drive. The Nats have added a quality reliever and the Red Sox are playing at the edges by adding Pearce.
I would like to see the Pirates be very active participants by dealing off many of the existing players while trying to add some real talent. As I noted the other day, I would now like to see the Bucs shop Marte, who is likely their best trade asset. Clearly, Harrison, Mercer, Dickerson (who is not hitting with any power and who has been slumping some) and Freese should be available. I am not a Polanco fan, but believe the team likely needs to hold onto him because he would return so little.
Going to be a tough climb to see any real daylight, but I don't really see any alternatives. This team is having trouble treading water let alone getting back into the hunt. And, if your going to win no more than 72 - 75 games, might as well take a different route.
I would like to see the Pirates be very active participants by dealing off many of the existing players while trying to add some real talent. As I noted the other day, I would now like to see the Bucs shop Marte, who is likely their best trade asset. Clearly, Harrison, Mercer, Dickerson (who is not hitting with any power and who has been slumping some) and Freese should be available. I am not a Polanco fan, but believe the team likely needs to hold onto him because he would return so little.
Going to be a tough climb to see any real daylight, but I don't really see any alternatives. This team is having trouble treading water let alone getting back into the hunt. And, if your going to win no more than 72 - 75 games, might as well take a different route.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
What do you want to see...
I still hold out hope that the Bucs can make a run and play some meaningful September baseball. I don’t believe we have the trade chips to get good to great prospects. I also feel that if we do have a sell off that we need to hang on to Harrison as an example to the young players as far as hustle and the way the game should be played. I don’t have a problem dealing Nova, Freese, Mercer, Cervelli, even possibly Vazquez. But if we deal Vazquez it better be for a top prospect.
What do you want to see...
Mostly I would like them to decide if they are rebuilding or going for something. This notion of floating between the two is killing enthusiasm. If there are more sellers than buyers, then maybe they should buy (I know - that's the trick . . . how do you buy without committing money). One way or the other, though, I would like to see them pick a direction.
What do you want to see...
Late in the 2016 season I was watching the Brewers TV feed of their game vs the Bucs. The Brewers GM sat in for a couple innings talking about the future with the game announcers. They all went on and on about their plans for the future and how success was imminent.
During that off-season the Brewers signed Eric Thames (31 HR in 2017) after a 3 year tour in Korea where he averaged 41 HR/year, Travis Shaw (31 HR in 2017) from Boston, and Jesus Aguilar (19 HR so far in 2018 with an OPS over 1.000) off waivers from Cleveland. None of these guys looked like all-stars at the time, but they all produced well in 2017. The Brewer FO did good work unearthing these players.
Having improved from 73 wins in 2016 to 85 in 2017, Brewer management got more aggressive acquiring Lorenzo Cain, Christian Yelich, and Pitcher Jhoulys Chacin among others. This team is on a great trajectory for the playoffs in 2018 and their payroll is only around $93M. They have a stout bullpen, but the team could probably use a few more pieces to be a serious contender to advance in the post season. BUT, their management has shown 1) they will do the hard work, 2) are pretty adept at identifying talent, and 3) they have the willingness to make the moves (including trading prospects) that will improve their team. They function like an Enterprise that wants to succeed.
That is what I want to see from the Pirates.
During that off-season the Brewers signed Eric Thames (31 HR in 2017) after a 3 year tour in Korea where he averaged 41 HR/year, Travis Shaw (31 HR in 2017) from Boston, and Jesus Aguilar (19 HR so far in 2018 with an OPS over 1.000) off waivers from Cleveland. None of these guys looked like all-stars at the time, but they all produced well in 2017. The Brewer FO did good work unearthing these players.
Having improved from 73 wins in 2016 to 85 in 2017, Brewer management got more aggressive acquiring Lorenzo Cain, Christian Yelich, and Pitcher Jhoulys Chacin among others. This team is on a great trajectory for the playoffs in 2018 and their payroll is only around $93M. They have a stout bullpen, but the team could probably use a few more pieces to be a serious contender to advance in the post season. BUT, their management has shown 1) they will do the hard work, 2) are pretty adept at identifying talent, and 3) they have the willingness to make the moves (including trading prospects) that will improve their team. They function like an Enterprise that wants to succeed.
That is what I want to see from the Pirates.
What do you want to see...
0C0B273026450 wrote: Late in the 2016 season I was watching the Brewers TV feed of their game vs the Bucs. The Brewers GM sat in for a couple innings talking about the future with the game announcers. They all went on and on about their plans for the future and how success was imminent.
During that off-season the Brewers signed Eric Thames (31 HR in 2017) after a 3 year tour in Korea where he averaged 41 HR/year, Travis Shaw (31 HR in 2017) from Boston, and Jesus Aguilar (19 HR so far in 2018 with an OPS over 1.000) off waivers from Cleveland. None of these guys looked like all-stars at the time, but they all produced well in 2017. The Brewer FO did good work unearthing these players.
Having improved from 73 wins in 2016 to 85 in 2017, Brewer management got more aggressive acquiring Lorenzo Cain, Christian Yelich, and Pitcher Jhoulys Chacin among others. This team is on a great trajectory for the playoffs in 2018 and their payroll is only around $93M. They have a stout bullpen, but the team could probably use a few more pieces to be a serious contender to advance in the post season. BUT, their management has shown 1) they will do the hard work, 2) are pretty adept at identifying talent, and 3) they have the willingness to make the moves (including trading prospects) that will improve their team. They function like an Enterprise that wants to succeed.
That is what I want to see from the Pirates.
Everything you say is accurate. Though, I don't know how to analyze the two thoughts I bolded above. It seems like those are the sorts of moves the Pirates have made also. Looking for really fringy players from strange places. They have been mocked for their search for talent in Africa and non baseball European places. Those approaches have not produced anything. The Pirates went outside the box a bit in Kang. He has been a disappointment for reasons beyond their control.
I guess I just don't know how to really analyze that point faithfully. Maybe it is as simple as the Brewers are better at evaluating this stuff than the Pirates. Maybe they are really lucky. I mean, the Eric Thames thing was shocking. This Agular guy is shocking. It seems like the Pirates take flyers on those types of players often. They fail. Everyone makes fun of the Pirates, and we move on.
During that off-season the Brewers signed Eric Thames (31 HR in 2017) after a 3 year tour in Korea where he averaged 41 HR/year, Travis Shaw (31 HR in 2017) from Boston, and Jesus Aguilar (19 HR so far in 2018 with an OPS over 1.000) off waivers from Cleveland. None of these guys looked like all-stars at the time, but they all produced well in 2017. The Brewer FO did good work unearthing these players.
Having improved from 73 wins in 2016 to 85 in 2017, Brewer management got more aggressive acquiring Lorenzo Cain, Christian Yelich, and Pitcher Jhoulys Chacin among others. This team is on a great trajectory for the playoffs in 2018 and their payroll is only around $93M. They have a stout bullpen, but the team could probably use a few more pieces to be a serious contender to advance in the post season. BUT, their management has shown 1) they will do the hard work, 2) are pretty adept at identifying talent, and 3) they have the willingness to make the moves (including trading prospects) that will improve their team. They function like an Enterprise that wants to succeed.
That is what I want to see from the Pirates.
Everything you say is accurate. Though, I don't know how to analyze the two thoughts I bolded above. It seems like those are the sorts of moves the Pirates have made also. Looking for really fringy players from strange places. They have been mocked for their search for talent in Africa and non baseball European places. Those approaches have not produced anything. The Pirates went outside the box a bit in Kang. He has been a disappointment for reasons beyond their control.
I guess I just don't know how to really analyze that point faithfully. Maybe it is as simple as the Brewers are better at evaluating this stuff than the Pirates. Maybe they are really lucky. I mean, the Eric Thames thing was shocking. This Agular guy is shocking. It seems like the Pirates take flyers on those types of players often. They fail. Everyone makes fun of the Pirates, and we move on.