694449585F4E59191A2B0 wrote: Good post, MaineBucs. To that, I would also add:
They knew they had a special talent in Glasnow but couldn't figure out how to help him with his confidence issue.
They thought they were acquiring a stud pitcher in Archer even though he had regressed to mediocrity the 2.5 years prior to that trade.
They didn't seem to put much stock in Luplow and included him in the unnecessary Gonzalez deal. He now has 8 HRs for Cleveland, which would be the 3rd best on the Pirates.
They were quick to hand Harold Ramirez to Toronto to get the Blue Jays to pay Liriano for them. Ramirez was only 21 and was hitting .306 at Altoona at the time. Now he's 24 and hitting .312 for the Marlins.
The inability to properly assess talent is killing this team.
Harold Ramirez wouldn’t be in the majors with any team expect the Fish. He was cut by the Blue Jays. I’ll buy the Glasnow argument, but if Harold Ramirez has Chris Duffy’s career I’ll be amazed.
How about some accountability...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
How about some accountability...
55686F75686F010 wrote: Good post, MaineBucs. To that, I would also add:
They knew they had a special talent in Glasnow but couldn't figure out how to help him with his confidence issue.
They thought they were acquiring a stud pitcher in Archer even though he had regressed to mediocrity the 2.5 years prior to that trade.
They didn't seem to put much stock in Luplow and included him in the unnecessary Gonzalez deal. He now has 8 HRs for Cleveland, which would be the 3rd best on the Pirates.
They were quick to hand Harold Ramirez to Toronto to get the Blue Jays to pay Liriano for them. Ramirez was only 21 and was hitting .306 at Altoona at the time. Now he's 24 and hitting .312 for the Marlins.
The inability to properly assess talent is killing this team.
Harold Ramirez wouldn’t be in the majors with any team expect the Fish. He was cut by the Blue Jays. I’ll buy the Glasnow argument, but if Harold Ramirez has Chris Duffy’s career I’ll be amazed.
What difference does it make which team gave him the opportunity? .312 is .312. The Pirates gave up on him at the very young age of 21 after he hit .306 at Altoona. Ramirez had gone into that season ranked 5th in the system behind Glasnow, Meadows, Bell and Taillon and ahead of Hayes, Tucker and Newman. Should we write him off as a failure because he didn't bloom until the ripe old age of 24?
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2016/3/ ... s-for-2016
They knew they had a special talent in Glasnow but couldn't figure out how to help him with his confidence issue.
They thought they were acquiring a stud pitcher in Archer even though he had regressed to mediocrity the 2.5 years prior to that trade.
They didn't seem to put much stock in Luplow and included him in the unnecessary Gonzalez deal. He now has 8 HRs for Cleveland, which would be the 3rd best on the Pirates.
They were quick to hand Harold Ramirez to Toronto to get the Blue Jays to pay Liriano for them. Ramirez was only 21 and was hitting .306 at Altoona at the time. Now he's 24 and hitting .312 for the Marlins.
The inability to properly assess talent is killing this team.
Harold Ramirez wouldn’t be in the majors with any team expect the Fish. He was cut by the Blue Jays. I’ll buy the Glasnow argument, but if Harold Ramirez has Chris Duffy’s career I’ll be amazed.
What difference does it make which team gave him the opportunity? .312 is .312. The Pirates gave up on him at the very young age of 21 after he hit .306 at Altoona. Ramirez had gone into that season ranked 5th in the system behind Glasnow, Meadows, Bell and Taillon and ahead of Hayes, Tucker and Newman. Should we write him off as a failure because he didn't bloom until the ripe old age of 24?
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2016/3/ ... s-for-2016
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
How about some accountability...
Vazquez, Liriano, Crick and Musgrove are the only pitchers currently on the roster with ERA’s under 5.
4 pitchers with ERA’s of over 7
How sad is that
4 pitchers with ERA’s of over 7
How sad is that
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Bobster21
How about some accountability...
13363535200B363E3C2B590 wrote: Vazquez, Liriano, Crick and Musgrove are the only pitchers currently on the roster with ERA’s under 5.
4 pitchers with ERA’s of over 7
How sad is that
And don't look at the recent games of those 4 guys. They're worse than 5.00.
4 pitchers with ERA’s of over 7
How sad is that
And don't look at the recent games of those 4 guys. They're worse than 5.00.
How about some accountability...
The Pirates get some press on CNN this morning --
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/284 ... m=referral
Not good press, of course.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/284 ... m=referral
Not good press, of course.
How about some accountability...
0D0F151305600 wrote: The Pirates get some press on CNN this morning --
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/284 ... m=referral
Not good press, of course.
The truth hurts.
I was not pleased with the trade before I heard there was a PTBNL beyond Meadows and Glasnow. As soon as the rumors emerged that it was Baz, I turned fully against it. It just felt like the wrong kind of move for a team like the Pirates - especially when there was no expectation (by me) that the Pirates would add more to Archer & Kela to make a real run. And what the Rays did is exactly the kind of move the Bucs should make. The Bucs traded a better pitcher in Cole with similar control for less.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/284 ... m=referral
Not good press, of course.
The truth hurts.
I was not pleased with the trade before I heard there was a PTBNL beyond Meadows and Glasnow. As soon as the rumors emerged that it was Baz, I turned fully against it. It just felt like the wrong kind of move for a team like the Pirates - especially when there was no expectation (by me) that the Pirates would add more to Archer & Kela to make a real run. And what the Rays did is exactly the kind of move the Bucs should make. The Bucs traded a better pitcher in Cole with similar control for less.
How about some accountability...
A lot less...we got snookered in both deals.
I wish we included Polanco to the Tampa deal and kept Meadows quite honestly.
And get a better prospect from Houston versus the quantity we received from them. A 3 for 1 would have been better.
Musgrove/Moran and Whitley should have been the price for Cole.
I wish we included Polanco to the Tampa deal and kept Meadows quite honestly.
And get a better prospect from Houston versus the quantity we received from them. A 3 for 1 would have been better.
Musgrove/Moran and Whitley should have been the price for Cole.
How about some accountability...
07090C05131A0505600 wrote: A lot less...we got snookered in both deals.
I wish we included Polanco to the Tampa deal and kept Meadows quite honestly.
And get a better prospect from Houston versus the quantity we received from them. A 3 for 1 would have been better.
Musgrove/Moran and Whitley should have been the price for Cole.
NH is fascinated with A. Cammeniero types on the mound, hence Feliz.
I wish we included Polanco to the Tampa deal and kept Meadows quite honestly.
And get a better prospect from Houston versus the quantity we received from them. A 3 for 1 would have been better.
Musgrove/Moran and Whitley should have been the price for Cole.
NH is fascinated with A. Cammeniero types on the mound, hence Feliz.
How about some accountability...
In looking at the old threads that were posted I can read of how I was skeptical of adding Archer at the time, and grew more skeptical with the addition of Baz in the trade.
As most have stated, NH got snookered in the Archer deal, Kela has added very little, and the sum of the parts for Cole are not equal to a top of rotation starter. So --- Where should the Pirates go from here?
1) Starting Pitching. Starting pitching appears that it is going to be a real problem throughout this season. Perhaps Williams will give the team a bump, but Archer and Lyles don't appear to be dependable starters, Musgrove periodically demonstrates periods of potential success, and Keller has been a real disappointment in his first 2 starts. I also don't think that we will see Tallion back with the team until late in the season if at all. I also don't consider Brault a real long-term option for the rotation. In short, it appears that the team needs pitching reinforcements for the rotation for next season and beyond.
2) Bullpen. Bullpens are often unpredictable. Vasquez appears solid, however, the other two better pitchers in the pen, Liriano and Crick, may not be long term options. And, the Pirates should count their blessings if they somehow uncover even one remotely dependable reliever out of the mix of other arms on the team.
3) Outfield. The one place where there could be a surplus of talent. Polanco is still a mystery (semi) talent, but there could be someone to trade for value here.
4) Infield. Kang starting to hit would actually provide the Pirates a shop him. Moran could have some value too if the Bucs believe that Hayes will be ready next year.
5) Catching. Little to nothing after Diaz and Stallings. Cervelli is basically history, even if he does return.
Sadly, I don't see the Bucs climbing back into the race this year; not enough pitching. And, the prospects for 2020 do not look good because there similarly will not be enough pitching. As such, and as much as it pains me, I believe the Bucs need to reverse course from the misdirected Archer and Kela deals and trade players who have the potential to garner a return for talent that can arrive by late 2020.
Marte, Polanco, Cabrera and Dickerson should all be available for potential trade. Cabrera clearly should be dealt; he has no future value. I question if Dickerson would net much return at all, and have similar concerns about Polanco. Marte is the one player who may net the Pirates some real return, particularly because he is playing better as of yet, he is a true centerfielder and he is cost controlled.
In the infield I would shop Moran and Kang if he begins to hit at all. Doubt either returns much though.
And, as bad as the pen is, perhaps it is time to try and get some value for Liriano and Crick, and if they are blown away with a deal, Vasquez.
I know this thread is about accountability. Going the route I am suggesting would require management to state that the team, as currently constructed, cannot compete this year, and likely next year, if more talent isn't added. In some places, this would equate to ownership decided to spend more to add free agents. In Pittsburgh, we know that Nutting will not do such (Lonnie Chisenall anyone), so the only real hope appears to be swinging a few deals that strips the club of some of its existing talent to try and restock the team for the future.
Horrible to contemplate, but the Bucs need more talent.
As most have stated, NH got snookered in the Archer deal, Kela has added very little, and the sum of the parts for Cole are not equal to a top of rotation starter. So --- Where should the Pirates go from here?
1) Starting Pitching. Starting pitching appears that it is going to be a real problem throughout this season. Perhaps Williams will give the team a bump, but Archer and Lyles don't appear to be dependable starters, Musgrove periodically demonstrates periods of potential success, and Keller has been a real disappointment in his first 2 starts. I also don't think that we will see Tallion back with the team until late in the season if at all. I also don't consider Brault a real long-term option for the rotation. In short, it appears that the team needs pitching reinforcements for the rotation for next season and beyond.
2) Bullpen. Bullpens are often unpredictable. Vasquez appears solid, however, the other two better pitchers in the pen, Liriano and Crick, may not be long term options. And, the Pirates should count their blessings if they somehow uncover even one remotely dependable reliever out of the mix of other arms on the team.
3) Outfield. The one place where there could be a surplus of talent. Polanco is still a mystery (semi) talent, but there could be someone to trade for value here.
4) Infield. Kang starting to hit would actually provide the Pirates a shop him. Moran could have some value too if the Bucs believe that Hayes will be ready next year.
5) Catching. Little to nothing after Diaz and Stallings. Cervelli is basically history, even if he does return.
Sadly, I don't see the Bucs climbing back into the race this year; not enough pitching. And, the prospects for 2020 do not look good because there similarly will not be enough pitching. As such, and as much as it pains me, I believe the Bucs need to reverse course from the misdirected Archer and Kela deals and trade players who have the potential to garner a return for talent that can arrive by late 2020.
Marte, Polanco, Cabrera and Dickerson should all be available for potential trade. Cabrera clearly should be dealt; he has no future value. I question if Dickerson would net much return at all, and have similar concerns about Polanco. Marte is the one player who may net the Pirates some real return, particularly because he is playing better as of yet, he is a true centerfielder and he is cost controlled.
In the infield I would shop Moran and Kang if he begins to hit at all. Doubt either returns much though.
And, as bad as the pen is, perhaps it is time to try and get some value for Liriano and Crick, and if they are blown away with a deal, Vasquez.
I know this thread is about accountability. Going the route I am suggesting would require management to state that the team, as currently constructed, cannot compete this year, and likely next year, if more talent isn't added. In some places, this would equate to ownership decided to spend more to add free agents. In Pittsburgh, we know that Nutting will not do such (Lonnie Chisenall anyone), so the only real hope appears to be swinging a few deals that strips the club of some of its existing talent to try and restock the team for the future.
Horrible to contemplate, but the Bucs need more talent.
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Bobster21
How about some accountability...
The problem with assessing the team's problems and trying to find solutions is that Nutting & Co seem either uninterested or incapable of rectifying those issues. Payroll must remain in the bottom 4-5 of MLB. That prevents trades for accomplished players who have contracts in line with their performance. So acquisitions must consist of unproven players and prospects. And TBMTIB has a great deal of difficulty developing young players. They also have difficulty knowing what they've got before trading it and assessing what other teams have before trading for it.
They occasionally hit on a good return like Reynolds and Crick for Cutch. But the return on Cole was poor. Musgrove had been bad as a starter for Houston, Feliz came from Houston with a 5.63 ERA and has never even done that well as a Pirate. And they were unable to get from Cole what Houston has gotten from him. Ditto for Morton. They traded for Gonzalez, who seemed like a marginal utility player because they didn't think Newman--after spending a 1st rd pick on him--could be their SS. Then they found out Newman was the guy after all. They acted like they were acquiring a legit stud in Archer when they traded the farm for him following 2+ years of mediocrity. And they aren't developing pitchers in the minors. Kingham washed out. Keller looks awful. Glasnow had to leave to find success, a la Cole and Morton. And when they need a BP arm, it's usually Neverauskas or some other guy who doesn't belong in MLB.
So while we as fans can speculate on what could be done to improve the direction of the team, the people in charge who actually have to make those decisions seem to be proving that they are either uninterested (due to $$$) or simply incompetent.
They occasionally hit on a good return like Reynolds and Crick for Cutch. But the return on Cole was poor. Musgrove had been bad as a starter for Houston, Feliz came from Houston with a 5.63 ERA and has never even done that well as a Pirate. And they were unable to get from Cole what Houston has gotten from him. Ditto for Morton. They traded for Gonzalez, who seemed like a marginal utility player because they didn't think Newman--after spending a 1st rd pick on him--could be their SS. Then they found out Newman was the guy after all. They acted like they were acquiring a legit stud in Archer when they traded the farm for him following 2+ years of mediocrity. And they aren't developing pitchers in the minors. Kingham washed out. Keller looks awful. Glasnow had to leave to find success, a la Cole and Morton. And when they need a BP arm, it's usually Neverauskas or some other guy who doesn't belong in MLB.
So while we as fans can speculate on what could be done to improve the direction of the team, the people in charge who actually have to make those decisions seem to be proving that they are either uninterested (due to $$$) or simply incompetent.