My wife's uncle introduced me to this forum about 15 years ago and it has been a lot of fun reading and posting over the years.
I feel like there is as much or more negativity about the Pirates as there has ever been. Is that residual angst from the virus/politics/world around us?
More to the point, there is a much higher (it seems to me) feeling of "win now because I don't care about the future" or "they have no plan and will never win."
I'm in my late 30s. I was less than 10 when our hearts were broken with a Sid Bream slide. I then spent most of my life with a Pirates reality that was never competitive and for most of that time was visionless. There were never any real hopes in the later 90s or the early/mid 2000s that they were going to compete. In my teens and 20s this was just the way baseball in Pittsburgh was, and for some crazy reason, I still loved the game and the Pirates. IMO, NH was the first to actually have a plan that made sense. He implemented it and they had success for those three years. Again, in my opinion it was his good work that contributed to the 3 year winner and his poor work that put them in the subsequent tailspin.
I find myself right now very much open to watching the process play out again. Can this GM draft well? Can he evaluate talent? Can they develop talent better than the previous leadership? Can this plan work in the next 3-5 years? In the meantime, I will find some fun and joy in watching box scores and and grainy clips from minor league games. I guess I'm a process person and I am excited about the process playing out here again.
I feel like a bit of an outlier here. I wonder to myself if that is just cause I'm a fairly optimistic person? Is it because the Pirates have been losers most of my life? Are most of the posters here older and a) don't have the life longevity to wait out another building program, or b) have seen the Pirates win championships (I have not in my life) and don't have the patience for this building stuff.
I don't know, I just find it interesting that there is such angst over the place we are in now. It makes sense to me given my life's experience with the Pirates. So I was wondering why some are so down on the Pirates and if age had something to do with it.
Outlook and age
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Outlook and age
My observation is that opinions and outlook are largely generational, combined with the thought that, as fans, we have little say in the matter.
If you've experienced quality, it's sometimes difficult to accept inferiority. Younger adults and newer fans haven't experienced many winning Pirates seasons, let alone anything beyond that.
Older folks and longer fans have heard the words more often.
The two seem to look at punting differently.
Regardless of demographics, people have different patience levels.
Just my .02.
If you've experienced quality, it's sometimes difficult to accept inferiority. Younger adults and newer fans haven't experienced many winning Pirates seasons, let alone anything beyond that.
Older folks and longer fans have heard the words more often.
The two seem to look at punting differently.
Regardless of demographics, people have different patience levels.
Just my .02.
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DemDog
Outlook and age
Mike,
I have been rooting for the Bucs since 1958. I have been with them through good times and bad times. More often than not they have left disgruntled but I never gave up on them.
I think the negativity around them today comes about with the advent of modern tech. The internet and discussion boards like OBN, sports talk radio and tv where supposed journalists are giving opinions that quite often are jaded.
The business of baseball has changed in my life and even in your shorter life Mike. For me, life would not be good without Pirate baseball, good or bad. So cheers for you and a team you learned to root for by the previous generation.
I have been rooting for the Bucs since 1958. I have been with them through good times and bad times. More often than not they have left disgruntled but I never gave up on them.
I think the negativity around them today comes about with the advent of modern tech. The internet and discussion boards like OBN, sports talk radio and tv where supposed journalists are giving opinions that quite often are jaded.
The business of baseball has changed in my life and even in your shorter life Mike. For me, life would not be good without Pirate baseball, good or bad. So cheers for you and a team you learned to root for by the previous generation.
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Bobster21
Outlook and age
I agree with you. I'm not happy about how bad the team is and there is simply no defense for Nutting. But it is what it is. We can either abandon the team as fans, grouse nonstop about it, or watch what's happening (i.e., Cherington's attempts to rebuild) instead of focusing on what isn't happening (i.e., there is no plan to currently contend).
When Huntington made the team competitive they pulled the plug before even spending a major league average payroll. Then it was just one bad move after another. And now Huntington's gone. Will Cherington be a dud? Who knows? Those who prefer to grouse all day have already labeled him a failure because he follows his plan and not theirs. He's trying to restock the depleted farm system by using what little he has on the major league roster as trade bait. I don't know what other option is available to him since Nutting is not going to pay for veteran acquisitions to immediately compete.
So we can see what the plan is. It remains to be seen if Cherington is good enough at evaluating prospects to target in trades to make the team competitive in a few years. As fans, we don't have a team that's trying to compete now. We have a team that's making moves with the future in mind. We can either wait and see how that turns out or we can complain all day that we want them to compete NOW! and that anything else is just kicking the can.
When Huntington made the team competitive they pulled the plug before even spending a major league average payroll. Then it was just one bad move after another. And now Huntington's gone. Will Cherington be a dud? Who knows? Those who prefer to grouse all day have already labeled him a failure because he follows his plan and not theirs. He's trying to restock the depleted farm system by using what little he has on the major league roster as trade bait. I don't know what other option is available to him since Nutting is not going to pay for veteran acquisitions to immediately compete.
So we can see what the plan is. It remains to be seen if Cherington is good enough at evaluating prospects to target in trades to make the team competitive in a few years. As fans, we don't have a team that's trying to compete now. We have a team that's making moves with the future in mind. We can either wait and see how that turns out or we can complain all day that we want them to compete NOW! and that anything else is just kicking the can.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Outlook and age
If you're gonna tank it's a good time to do it. Last season was, well, 2020; and this year I'm betting not many people are going to be able to go watch either. I just hope we have some MiLB playing so we can follow all these new toys that we've brought in.
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ArnoldRothstein
Outlook and age
I think the negativity around them today comes about with the advent of modern tech.
I don't think that this is right. I've lived through several major youth movements: around 1986, mid-nineties, 2008-2010. This one is different, because the goal now is to have the worst team in baseball next year. Joe L. Brown, Cam Bonifay, Neal Huntington would have been delighted to surprise with a winning team any year, because then you just built from there. This team can't do that, because the goal for 2021 lies in 2022: another No. 1 pick, and bigger draft and international pools. It's a horrible thing that baseball's done to itself, but it's part of the game itself, not the tech surrounding it.
I don't think that this is right. I've lived through several major youth movements: around 1986, mid-nineties, 2008-2010. This one is different, because the goal now is to have the worst team in baseball next year. Joe L. Brown, Cam Bonifay, Neal Huntington would have been delighted to surprise with a winning team any year, because then you just built from there. This team can't do that, because the goal for 2021 lies in 2022: another No. 1 pick, and bigger draft and international pools. It's a horrible thing that baseball's done to itself, but it's part of the game itself, not the tech surrounding it.
Outlook and age
41726E6F6C64526F7468737465696E000 wrote: I think the negativity around them today comes about with the advent of modern tech.
I don't think that this is right. I've lived through several major youth movements: around 1986, mid-nineties, 2008-2010. This one is different, because the goal now is to have the worst team in baseball next year. Joe L. Brown, Cam Bonifay, Neal Huntington would have been delighted to surprise with a winning team any year, because then you just built from there. This team can't do that, because the goal for 2021 lies in 2022: another No. 1 pick, and bigger draft and international pools. It's a horrible thing that baseball's done to itself, but it's part of the game itself, not the tech surrounding it.
I wonder if there is two things going on here. On one hand, you are exactly right in the semantics of MLB. They have absolutely incentivized being the worst. To that point, I have argued around here that we should be the worst as long as we are rebuilding and then sell out to win.
The second point is about modern tech. I don't think, necessarily, modern tech exacerbates negativity, it just gives it a common ground and outlet(?). People would be pissed about their perception of things no matter what. The internet (this forum) gives people a place to vet it and find allies. That isn't necessarily a bad thing...though it can be used in really bad ways. As we have seen in our culture over the last two weeks when hate groups use social media to act out their angst.
I don't think that this is right. I've lived through several major youth movements: around 1986, mid-nineties, 2008-2010. This one is different, because the goal now is to have the worst team in baseball next year. Joe L. Brown, Cam Bonifay, Neal Huntington would have been delighted to surprise with a winning team any year, because then you just built from there. This team can't do that, because the goal for 2021 lies in 2022: another No. 1 pick, and bigger draft and international pools. It's a horrible thing that baseball's done to itself, but it's part of the game itself, not the tech surrounding it.
I wonder if there is two things going on here. On one hand, you are exactly right in the semantics of MLB. They have absolutely incentivized being the worst. To that point, I have argued around here that we should be the worst as long as we are rebuilding and then sell out to win.
The second point is about modern tech. I don't think, necessarily, modern tech exacerbates negativity, it just gives it a common ground and outlet(?). People would be pissed about their perception of things no matter what. The internet (this forum) gives people a place to vet it and find allies. That isn't necessarily a bad thing...though it can be used in really bad ways. As we have seen in our culture over the last two weeks when hate groups use social media to act out their angst.
Outlook and age
4C616C7D7A6B7C3C3F0E0 wrote: I agree with you. I'm not happy about how bad the team is and there is simply no defense for Nutting. But it is what it is. We can either abandon the team as fans, grouse nonstop about it, or watch what's happening (i.e., Cherington's attempts to rebuild) instead of focusing on what isn't happening (i.e., there is no plan to currently contend).
When Huntington made the team competitive they pulled the plug before even spending a major league average payroll. Then it was just one bad move after another. And now Huntington's gone. Will Cherington be a dud? Who knows? Those who prefer to grouse all day have already labeled him a failure because he follows his plan and not theirs. He's trying to restock the depleted farm system by using what little he has on the major league roster as trade bait. I don't know what other option is available to him since Nutting is not going to pay for veteran acquisitions to immediately compete.
So we can see what the plan is. It remains to be seen if Cherington is good enough at evaluating prospects to target in trades to make the team competitive in a few years. As fans, we don't have a team that's trying to compete now. We have a team that's making moves with the future in mind. We can either wait and see how that turns out or we can complain all day that we want them to compete NOW! and that anything else is just kicking the can.
This is, largely, a good way of articulating how I feel. The system is broken and we all know it. It sucks. But I'm not going to spend my time making the same complaints. In a broken system, you can be resilient and still figure out how to push back. I'm interested in what that can look like.
With our kids, we come down hard on blaming others and making a victim of ourselves. Let's be resilient. Maybe that's why I can be optimistic and drawn to the Pirates.
When Huntington made the team competitive they pulled the plug before even spending a major league average payroll. Then it was just one bad move after another. And now Huntington's gone. Will Cherington be a dud? Who knows? Those who prefer to grouse all day have already labeled him a failure because he follows his plan and not theirs. He's trying to restock the depleted farm system by using what little he has on the major league roster as trade bait. I don't know what other option is available to him since Nutting is not going to pay for veteran acquisitions to immediately compete.
So we can see what the plan is. It remains to be seen if Cherington is good enough at evaluating prospects to target in trades to make the team competitive in a few years. As fans, we don't have a team that's trying to compete now. We have a team that's making moves with the future in mind. We can either wait and see how that turns out or we can complain all day that we want them to compete NOW! and that anything else is just kicking the can.
This is, largely, a good way of articulating how I feel. The system is broken and we all know it. It sucks. But I'm not going to spend my time making the same complaints. In a broken system, you can be resilient and still figure out how to push back. I'm interested in what that can look like.
With our kids, we come down hard on blaming others and making a victim of ourselves. Let's be resilient. Maybe that's why I can be optimistic and drawn to the Pirates.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Outlook and age
The internet increases the negativity when the team does poorly in that it reaches more people faster.
But, when the team's doing well, the internet does the same for positivity.
But, when the team's doing well, the internet does the same for positivity.
Outlook and age
for me, I want to see that the team is trying to win. It is disappointing that by the end of NH's tenure the team's talent level had dropped as far as it did that tinkering was not going to build a winner.
It took NH several years to get the talent level to what it was in 2013.
To me, if a gm can't build a winning team in 4 or 5 years then he is not going to be successful.
The plan with BC is the same as NH because that is the only plan the Pirates can follow with the current financial constraints. Still, we should be able to tell if BC is doing a good job by the end of year three (see the light at the end of the tunnel).
Also, while the system is broken, I don't think baseball ever has had a level playing field. There has only been a pretty big financial difference between teams although it is probably wider now.
It took NH several years to get the talent level to what it was in 2013.
To me, if a gm can't build a winning team in 4 or 5 years then he is not going to be successful.
The plan with BC is the same as NH because that is the only plan the Pirates can follow with the current financial constraints. Still, we should be able to tell if BC is doing a good job by the end of year three (see the light at the end of the tunnel).
Also, while the system is broken, I don't think baseball ever has had a level playing field. There has only been a pretty big financial difference between teams although it is probably wider now.