unfortunately the game isn't who extracts the best value. I.E. who has the best $ per win ratio. Maybe they should make a trophy for that.
Unfortunately, the game is who wins. Pennants, championships, division titles, etc...
Sometimes, when you're getting 5 million dollar production on a 10 million dollar contract, YOU JUST NEED TO EAT IT and take the production you're "overpaying for" instead of going into dump mode. Maybe you just need to shut down a player or change their role while you eat the contract, in the belief that they will turn it around?
What you don't need to do is "extract great value" from them while they're producing, and then as soon as they have a bad year and underproduce that years salary, dump them. Those aren't baseball decisions, they're money decisions.
sure, it's hurts that awesome cost-win ratio but it wins more baseball games. That's the game.
Liriano or Nova?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Liriano or Nova?
So, players should be kept no matter how they are producing? Liriano was not great value. He was awful in 2016. Jeff Locke was a better bargain last year than Liriano. I don't want Locke back either.
Dumping salaries can also be a baseball decision. They replaced Liriano's salary already for next year. Why pay someone when you think they won't produce? Huntington said why he dumped Liriano. His on field performance got him traded, not his salary.
If McCutchen is traded, will you consider that a salary dump or trading a player who may be on the downside of his career? Also noting that the Pirates top prospect is an outfielder.
Why did you want Happ back last year? He never really produced at a high level and was worse than Nova years prior in joining the Pirates.
Dumping salaries can also be a baseball decision. They replaced Liriano's salary already for next year. Why pay someone when you think they won't produce? Huntington said why he dumped Liriano. His on field performance got him traded, not his salary.
If McCutchen is traded, will you consider that a salary dump or trading a player who may be on the downside of his career? Also noting that the Pirates top prospect is an outfielder.
Why did you want Happ back last year? He never really produced at a high level and was worse than Nova years prior in joining the Pirates.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Liriano or Nova?
7E757D7174756E2B2D5A637B7275753479751A0 wrote: So, players should be kept no matter how they are producing? Liriano was not great value. He was awful in 2016. Jeff Locke was a better bargain last year than Liriano. I don't want Locke back either.
He was awful three months and good for the three years before that.
McCutchen (for example) was bad for about 2-3 mos, mostly good/okay for a few after that, and great for the years before. McCutchen's year wasn't as bad as Liriano's but I wouldn't have dumped him for nothing either. I am assuming that the bad few months are the exception and not the several years previous. Even if isn't the case though it's a reasonable bet to take. It's not a perfect comparison but probably better than a Locke example, who has never been that good.
Sorry, the idea that it's okay to cut a guy loose for nothing because of a long slump doesn't cut it for me. Now if there's something else behind the numbers that's one thing. But saying it's okay to just drop the guy? I guess we should have cut about half the team then.
He was awful three months and good for the three years before that.
McCutchen (for example) was bad for about 2-3 mos, mostly good/okay for a few after that, and great for the years before. McCutchen's year wasn't as bad as Liriano's but I wouldn't have dumped him for nothing either. I am assuming that the bad few months are the exception and not the several years previous. Even if isn't the case though it's a reasonable bet to take. It's not a perfect comparison but probably better than a Locke example, who has never been that good.
Sorry, the idea that it's okay to cut a guy loose for nothing because of a long slump doesn't cut it for me. Now if there's something else behind the numbers that's one thing. But saying it's okay to just drop the guy? I guess we should have cut about half the team then.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Liriano or Nova?
First off, I don't want McCutchen to be traded. I doubt he will be traded for nothing either, but I am worried for the return if he is dealt.
I was really just curious about McCutchen. Not every time when a high priced player is traded it is a salary dump or based on money. Liriano was awful last year. Awful. He was great the previous years. All players lose it eventually. Huntington thought (and said this) that the league has figured him out and moved him. Liriano was not helping the 2016 team. Huntington feels he will not help the 2017 team. That is a baseball decision too.
I was really just curious about McCutchen. Not every time when a high priced player is traded it is a salary dump or based on money. Liriano was awful last year. Awful. He was great the previous years. All players lose it eventually. Huntington thought (and said this) that the league has figured him out and moved him. Liriano was not helping the 2016 team. Huntington feels he will not help the 2017 team. That is a baseball decision too.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Liriano or Nova?
Yeah probably, but it looks like the Blue Jays considered him an asset, and even if we wanted to move on it should have been for more than a negative return. Personally I view Liriano as exactly the kind of buy-low bounceback candidate we'd be talking about acquiring had he been pitching for another team.
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OrlandoMerced
Liriano or Nova?
I have a feeling that the Blue Jays are going to be questioning themselves about some of these recent roster decisions.
Liriano or Nova?
5E575F4E403A0 wrote: unfortunately the game isn't who extracts the best value. I.E. who has the best $ per win ratio. Maybe they should make a trophy for that.
Unfortunately, the game is who wins. Pennants, championships, division titles, etc...
Sometimes, when you're getting 5 million dollar production on a 10 million dollar contract, YOU JUST NEED TO EAT IT and take the production you're "overpaying for" instead of going into dump mode. Maybe you just need to shut down a player or change their role while you eat the contract, in the belief that they will turn it around?
What you don't need to do is "extract great value" from them while they're producing, and then as soon as they have a bad year and underproduce that years salary, dump them. Those aren't baseball decisions, they're money decisions.
sure, it's hurts that awesome cost-win ratio but it wins more baseball games. That's the game.
I obviously agree with this post. Unfortunately it's exactly how the Pirates operate. But what I can't understand is why fans accept and defend this philosophy. We're not talking about going out and signing David a Price or Chapman. But we're talking about some team created metric that claims how much you can or cannot spend on a player based on how much value that player and contract provide. And it's as if there's a large group of fans content with finishing 2nd or even losing as long as the Pirates internal values are always priority number one.
I can only assume dogknot doesn't understand a word I just posted.
Unfortunately, the game is who wins. Pennants, championships, division titles, etc...
Sometimes, when you're getting 5 million dollar production on a 10 million dollar contract, YOU JUST NEED TO EAT IT and take the production you're "overpaying for" instead of going into dump mode. Maybe you just need to shut down a player or change their role while you eat the contract, in the belief that they will turn it around?
What you don't need to do is "extract great value" from them while they're producing, and then as soon as they have a bad year and underproduce that years salary, dump them. Those aren't baseball decisions, they're money decisions.
sure, it's hurts that awesome cost-win ratio but it wins more baseball games. That's the game.
I obviously agree with this post. Unfortunately it's exactly how the Pirates operate. But what I can't understand is why fans accept and defend this philosophy. We're not talking about going out and signing David a Price or Chapman. But we're talking about some team created metric that claims how much you can or cannot spend on a player based on how much value that player and contract provide. And it's as if there's a large group of fans content with finishing 2nd or even losing as long as the Pirates internal values are always priority number one.
I can only assume dogknot doesn't understand a word I just posted.
Liriano or Nova?
605D434E414B40624A5D4C4A4B2F0 wrote: I have a feeling that the Blue Jays are going to be questioning themselves about some of these recent roster decisions.
Oh sure. They're definitely going to regret picking up 17 million in salary over a year and a half for Liriano, and at the time their #5 and #6 prospects McGuire and Ramirez.
Loosing sleep over that one, I'm sure. He closed out his season so strongly that his 2nd half ERA ended up at 4.09 with a 3k/BB ratio. Over 10 strikeouts per 9.
Come on
Oh sure. They're definitely going to regret picking up 17 million in salary over a year and a half for Liriano, and at the time their #5 and #6 prospects McGuire and Ramirez.
Loosing sleep over that one, I'm sure. He closed out his season so strongly that his 2nd half ERA ended up at 4.09 with a 3k/BB ratio. Over 10 strikeouts per 9.
Come on
Liriano or Nova?
I suspect the good NH soldiers will tell us how much more successful the Pirates have been despite how the Jays won their division in 15 and have reached the ALCS two straight years.
I know...I know....the Pirate have won nearly as much while spending less. Somehow making them more successful because they tried to sign Happ and tried to trade for Quintana. They tried sooo hard!
I know...I know....the Pirate have won nearly as much while spending less. Somehow making them more successful because they tried to sign Happ and tried to trade for Quintana. They tried sooo hard!
Liriano or Nova?
5A51595550514A0F097E475F565151105D513E0 wrote: So, players should be kept no matter how they are producing? Liriano was not great value. He was awful in 2016. Jeff Locke was a better bargain last year than Liriano. I don't want Locke back either.
Dumping salaries can also be a baseball decision. They replaced Liriano's salary already for next year. Why pay someone when you think they won't produce? Huntington said why he dumped Liriano. His on field performance got him traded, not his salary.
If McCutchen is traded, will you consider that a salary dump or trading a player who may be on the downside of his career? Also noting that the Pirates top prospect is an outfielder.
Why did you want Happ back last year? He never really produced at a high level and was worse than Nova years prior in joining the Pirates.
Since you bring up Jeff Locke I must ask why- if it was really on-field performance that got Liriano traded- didn't NH trade Locke? His on-field performance was nearly as awful as Liriano's and his potential has never been anywhere near as high. Unlike Liriano with Locke there was virtually no chance he would significantly improve his performance. He probably would have been easier to dump (maybe only one prospect required to sacrifice) too because of his lower salary.
Personally I think Liriano got dumped primarily because of his salary and not so much on-field performance because the Pirates kept a guy who was almost equally bad but didn't cost so much. Just another example of putting financial considerations ahead of competitive excellence.
Dumping salaries can also be a baseball decision. They replaced Liriano's salary already for next year. Why pay someone when you think they won't produce? Huntington said why he dumped Liriano. His on field performance got him traded, not his salary.
If McCutchen is traded, will you consider that a salary dump or trading a player who may be on the downside of his career? Also noting that the Pirates top prospect is an outfielder.
Why did you want Happ back last year? He never really produced at a high level and was worse than Nova years prior in joining the Pirates.
Since you bring up Jeff Locke I must ask why- if it was really on-field performance that got Liriano traded- didn't NH trade Locke? His on-field performance was nearly as awful as Liriano's and his potential has never been anywhere near as high. Unlike Liriano with Locke there was virtually no chance he would significantly improve his performance. He probably would have been easier to dump (maybe only one prospect required to sacrifice) too because of his lower salary.
Personally I think Liriano got dumped primarily because of his salary and not so much on-field performance because the Pirates kept a guy who was almost equally bad but didn't cost so much. Just another example of putting financial considerations ahead of competitive excellence.