I rate the trade based on the immediate return. Did Cherington improve the team with that move? Clearly not.
Punting is what losers do. We punted. We finished the worst in the business as the result. That's nothing to be especially proud of.
For all we know, the suspects received in return may never don the uniform of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
It's always the same with these guys. Seems they get away with it becuase it's so popular with fans.
Classic salary dump.
Off Season Thread
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3493
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Off Season Thread
1D283F3F340D3F3F34333F5A0 wrote: I rate the trade based on the immediate return. Did Cherington improve the team with that move? Clearly not.
Punting is what losers do. We punted. We finished the worst in the business as the result. That's nothing to be especially proud of.
For all we know, the suspects received in return may never don the uniform of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
It's always the same with these guys. Seems they get away with it becuase it's so popular with fans.
Classic salary dump.
If you want to call that a salary dump, I think you are going to see that alot this offseason. If they trade guys like Frazier, Kuhl or Musgrove I am going to assume they will receive players who have not yet reached the majors, or players who have had a little time in the big leagues with some success. For example when the Bucs moved Rick Rhoden to the Yanks, they received Drabek, Logan Easley and Brian Fisher. None of the 3 were well known at the time. Drabek became a star here after a couple years.
Punting is what losers do. We punted. We finished the worst in the business as the result. That's nothing to be especially proud of.
For all we know, the suspects received in return may never don the uniform of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
It's always the same with these guys. Seems they get away with it becuase it's so popular with fans.
Classic salary dump.
If you want to call that a salary dump, I think you are going to see that alot this offseason. If they trade guys like Frazier, Kuhl or Musgrove I am going to assume they will receive players who have not yet reached the majors, or players who have had a little time in the big leagues with some success. For example when the Bucs moved Rick Rhoden to the Yanks, they received Drabek, Logan Easley and Brian Fisher. None of the 3 were well known at the time. Drabek became a star here after a couple years.
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GreenWeenie
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Off Season Thread
We see it every year. We see similar results all too often.
But this time will be better, of course.
If you have to go back 25 years to make a case, you've lost the case. I believe that back then, the Pirates paid to keep guys. Apples/oranges/marshmallows. Not even close to the same situations.
But this time will be better, of course.
If you have to go back 25 years to make a case, you've lost the case. I believe that back then, the Pirates paid to keep guys. Apples/oranges/marshmallows. Not even close to the same situations.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Off Season Thread
243C3E39392E3F38252432570 wrote: The Cubs GM doesn't think that hoping his current players play better is the right strategy:
“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.
And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans. Hardly an LMG in sight. Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down. They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.
Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive. The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that. That begins with Nutting.
I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end. I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short. In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.
“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.
And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans. Hardly an LMG in sight. Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down. They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.
Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive. The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that. That begins with Nutting.
I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end. I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short. In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3493
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Off Season Thread
[pre][/pre]0035222229102222292E22470 wrote: We see it every year. We see similar results all too often.
But this time will be better, of course.
If you have to go back 25 years to make a case, you've lost the case. I believe that back then, the Pirates paid to keep guys. Apples/oranges/marshmallows. Not even close to the same situations.
If I remember correctly Rick Rhoden was to become free agent the following year after the Bucs traded him. Ownership 25 years ago didn’t always keep their potential free agent players. I used the Rhoden trade as an example as to type of players the Bucs could receive at this time if they traded let’s say Musgrove. The 3 players the Pirates received were not big league stars, but one became a very good pitcher and the other two were complimentary pieces. If the Pirates are to become a winning team they will have to make these types of trades.
But this time will be better, of course.
If you have to go back 25 years to make a case, you've lost the case. I believe that back then, the Pirates paid to keep guys. Apples/oranges/marshmallows. Not even close to the same situations.
If I remember correctly Rick Rhoden was to become free agent the following year after the Bucs traded him. Ownership 25 years ago didn’t always keep their potential free agent players. I used the Rhoden trade as an example as to type of players the Bucs could receive at this time if they traded let’s say Musgrove. The 3 players the Pirates received were not big league stars, but one became a very good pitcher and the other two were complimentary pieces. If the Pirates are to become a winning team they will have to make these types of trades.
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Bobster21
Off Season Thread
Throughout MLB history, there have always been 2 types of trades. One is meant to immediately strengthen a team that intends to compete immediately. The other is to help a team build for the future when it will not realistically compete immediately. This is nothing new for the Pirates or any other franchise.
Of course the catch is that a team trying to build for the future has to really mean it. That's where the Pirates come up short. I'm fine with the concept of trading for prospects who won't currently help the team win as long as there is an overall plan to actually build a good team that they can contribute to in a few years. And no team is going to be strong at all positions based only on home grown talent. The minor leagues are not a talent tree from which you just pick whatever you need and plug it in. Ideally, you can compile a solid core that way but then you have to spend more than the MLB absolute minimum to fill remaining holes with significant players, either by signing FAs, trading for good players with more expensive contracts and/or re-signing your own productive players. Not just by adding dumpster dives and reclamation projects.
So as Pirate fans we can either prefer to (1) acquire players in trades who are already productive major leaguers and will make a terrible team slightly less terrible until they leave. Or we can prefer to (2) build a core of prospects with the caveat that the organization makes an actual attempt to construct a competitive team that way. The first way has some immediate gratification on a small scale as it wins a few more meaningless games in meaningless, noncompetitive seasons. The second way lacks any immediate gratification but allows us to hope for a better future. But until the organization shows they are committed to that, both ways are lose-lose. So let's hope BC knows how to build a team and has at least some support from Nutting. But that seems to be asking a lot.
Of course the catch is that a team trying to build for the future has to really mean it. That's where the Pirates come up short. I'm fine with the concept of trading for prospects who won't currently help the team win as long as there is an overall plan to actually build a good team that they can contribute to in a few years. And no team is going to be strong at all positions based only on home grown talent. The minor leagues are not a talent tree from which you just pick whatever you need and plug it in. Ideally, you can compile a solid core that way but then you have to spend more than the MLB absolute minimum to fill remaining holes with significant players, either by signing FAs, trading for good players with more expensive contracts and/or re-signing your own productive players. Not just by adding dumpster dives and reclamation projects.
So as Pirate fans we can either prefer to (1) acquire players in trades who are already productive major leaguers and will make a terrible team slightly less terrible until they leave. Or we can prefer to (2) build a core of prospects with the caveat that the organization makes an actual attempt to construct a competitive team that way. The first way has some immediate gratification on a small scale as it wins a few more meaningless games in meaningless, noncompetitive seasons. The second way lacks any immediate gratification but allows us to hope for a better future. But until the organization shows they are committed to that, both ways are lose-lose. So let's hope BC knows how to build a team and has at least some support from Nutting. But that seems to be asking a lot.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
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Off Season Thread
Suspects are called suspects for good reason.
Cherington can choose to improve Altoona's or Indianapolis' teams all he wants.
I've never been to Indianapolis and don't care about its baseball team. I don't care about the Altoona Curve.
I care about the Pittsburgh Pirates. More specifically, the 2021 Pittsburgh Pirates. Cherington's job is to improve it.
But, BOB says that his job that his job is to Sell The Future.
He gave Marte for nothing, AFAIAC.
Cherington can choose to improve Altoona's or Indianapolis' teams all he wants.
I've never been to Indianapolis and don't care about its baseball team. I don't care about the Altoona Curve.
I care about the Pittsburgh Pirates. More specifically, the 2021 Pittsburgh Pirates. Cherington's job is to improve it.
But, BOB says that his job that his job is to Sell The Future.
He gave Marte for nothing, AFAIAC.
Off Season Thread
0254425659435358554270575D51595C1E53300 wrote: The Cubs GM doesn't think that hoping his current players play better is the right strategy:
“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.
And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans. Hardly an LMG in sight. Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down. They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.
Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive. The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that. That begins with Nutting.
I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end. I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short. In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.
I don't think we will ever see the WS again with Nutting as the owner. Just my 2 cents on that point.
I do however, expect the Bucs to be short term play-off participants. The only way that happens is to hit on some prospects obtained in the trades that will be made, and good drafting and subsequent development of both types of acquisitions. These were not strong points for Neal (see the Bay and Cole returns).
Cherington has shown through the years with Boston and Toronto that he has an eye for drafting talent, and putting the right people in place to develop it to a major league level. I'm patient enough to see how that goes for the next couple years. It is the only way the Bucs will be competitive in the future. Expecting anything else just isn't going to happen in the Pirate's world because Nutting won't spring for it.
In the meantime, I continue to feel like it's Groundhog Day on this message board as I wake up every day thinking it's 2011 and I'm on the PMB.
“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.
And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans. Hardly an LMG in sight. Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down. They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.
Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive. The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that. That begins with Nutting.
I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end. I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short. In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.
I don't think we will ever see the WS again with Nutting as the owner. Just my 2 cents on that point.
I do however, expect the Bucs to be short term play-off participants. The only way that happens is to hit on some prospects obtained in the trades that will be made, and good drafting and subsequent development of both types of acquisitions. These were not strong points for Neal (see the Bay and Cole returns).
Cherington has shown through the years with Boston and Toronto that he has an eye for drafting talent, and putting the right people in place to develop it to a major league level. I'm patient enough to see how that goes for the next couple years. It is the only way the Bucs will be competitive in the future. Expecting anything else just isn't going to happen in the Pirate's world because Nutting won't spring for it.
In the meantime, I continue to feel like it's Groundhog Day on this message board as I wake up every day thinking it's 2011 and I'm on the PMB.
Off Season Thread
The Houston Astros are now one of the most successful teams in baseball. They have been to the play-offs 4 straight seasons, won a World Series, and lost a World Series, with this year's outcome still in the balance. That said, things were not always that way. The Astros endured 6 consecutive losing seasons from 2009 - 2014, including 3 seasons in a row in which they lost more than 100 games, including one in which they lost 117 games (.315 winning percentage). They deliberately tore it down to the ground, spent little, fortunately drafted very (very) well, and when the time was right, spent money to acquire the high end talent to complement their home grown talent.
The Cubs are now enjoying 6 straight seasons of winning baseball, including 5 years in which they made the play-offs and one World Series win. Again, things were not always that way. Immediately before the above run they experienced 5 straight losing seasons, one with more than 100 losses and most near or above 90 losses. It now appears that their core may not remain intact because they are not achieving past results. To the Cubs credit, when their young talent arrived (in mass), they kept their talent and added; e.g. Lester and Arieta.
The Rays are now the model for a low budget franchise and amazingly, are again competing for the AL title. Phenomenal success by their general manager and scouting departments. The Rays, however, have also experienced periods of poor results on the field.
Why talk about this?
I believe if your sole goal is to improve the on-field performance of the Pirates' team in Pittsburgh next year, I believe the team will be condemned to mediocrity (at best). The Bucs have virtually no high end talent, and don't even possess a strong core of solid performers. The prospects for this assemblage of players is not looking good, and even if Mike Trout were added to the mix, I'm not sure the team's prospects would be all that much better.
While I wish things were different, they aren't. About the only way I see things changing on a dime would be if nearly everyone suddenly over-performed at the same time.
So, as much as I want to see the Pirates field a real winning team in Pittsburgh next year, I don't believe that is possible. As such, I hope that BC can move players like Frazier, Bell, Rodriguez and at least one of the starters for younger talent with a real or potential upside. And, likely hoping against hope, that several of these players actually make it to Pittsburgh and contribute to the next winning team.
And --- the next time there is a team that is performing well (winning), that Nutting actually gives the GM some latitude with the budget so they can add to the talent base and increase the likelihood of winning (Nutting's major failure after the 2015 season).
I will also note that I am no longer young and brash. I, like most, am getting older each year, and it pains me to think that I will never see our Pirates in the World Series again. I am saddened that I need to reach back to the 70's to talk about the last time the Pirates won the World Series. Growing up, the 60's World Series was a landmark event. That, however, also caused me to look back and see the last time that the Bucs had won the series; 1925. In short, Pirate fans at the time had to wait 35 long years between World Series titles. Current fans have now waited longer, and by current appearances, the wait could be interminable.
The Cubs are now enjoying 6 straight seasons of winning baseball, including 5 years in which they made the play-offs and one World Series win. Again, things were not always that way. Immediately before the above run they experienced 5 straight losing seasons, one with more than 100 losses and most near or above 90 losses. It now appears that their core may not remain intact because they are not achieving past results. To the Cubs credit, when their young talent arrived (in mass), they kept their talent and added; e.g. Lester and Arieta.
The Rays are now the model for a low budget franchise and amazingly, are again competing for the AL title. Phenomenal success by their general manager and scouting departments. The Rays, however, have also experienced periods of poor results on the field.
Why talk about this?
I believe if your sole goal is to improve the on-field performance of the Pirates' team in Pittsburgh next year, I believe the team will be condemned to mediocrity (at best). The Bucs have virtually no high end talent, and don't even possess a strong core of solid performers. The prospects for this assemblage of players is not looking good, and even if Mike Trout were added to the mix, I'm not sure the team's prospects would be all that much better.
While I wish things were different, they aren't. About the only way I see things changing on a dime would be if nearly everyone suddenly over-performed at the same time.
So, as much as I want to see the Pirates field a real winning team in Pittsburgh next year, I don't believe that is possible. As such, I hope that BC can move players like Frazier, Bell, Rodriguez and at least one of the starters for younger talent with a real or potential upside. And, likely hoping against hope, that several of these players actually make it to Pittsburgh and contribute to the next winning team.
And --- the next time there is a team that is performing well (winning), that Nutting actually gives the GM some latitude with the budget so they can add to the talent base and increase the likelihood of winning (Nutting's major failure after the 2015 season).
I will also note that I am no longer young and brash. I, like most, am getting older each year, and it pains me to think that I will never see our Pirates in the World Series again. I am saddened that I need to reach back to the 70's to talk about the last time the Pirates won the World Series. Growing up, the 60's World Series was a landmark event. That, however, also caused me to look back and see the last time that the Bucs had won the series; 1925. In short, Pirate fans at the time had to wait 35 long years between World Series titles. Current fans have now waited longer, and by current appearances, the wait could be interminable.
Off Season Thread
One on-going problem has been the GM's unwillingness to say the word "rebuild." They keep wanting to keep competing each year, so when they make trades they want ML ready players. You can get those but you don't get Mike Trout, you get Rodriquez or Colin Moran or whoever. ML ready but low ceiling. Teams won't give up the good player at that level unless they are getting something really good in return. We don't have much really good in return. They will trade good prospects at really low levels as those guys, no matter how good, 1 - may not make it, and 2 - will be forgotten by their fans by the time they do make it. For the Pirates to be really good, they have to accept being really bad for a while. Three or four years. Grab as many of those top picks as they can and then (Oh, please) develop them.