I was not a fan of Bautista. He didn't listen to coaches in Pittsburgh. He was traded to Toronto and started listening to the coaches. When you get traded by one of the worse teams in the league, that should open your eyes. It did for Bautista. He was almost out of baseball. Luckily, Toronto gave him one more shot after a little improvement in 2009. Bautista was a bad attitude. He still is as he said he expected to get paid for what he has done in the past and not what he is going to do in the future.
Cole probably woke up too as his numbers were getting worse. 2015 was a very good year, great year actually, for Cole. Injuries in 2016 and then 2017 was his worst ERA season and the home runs. I am sure Cole got a wake up call too. He hasn't got his big pay day yet.
Cole
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SammyKhalifa
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Cole
I didn't like when we traded Bautista, but I'm certainly not going to pretend it was because I thought he would turn into a monster. I thought he was a nice UT guy to have around.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Cole
5D6F63637745666F6267686F0E0 wrote: I didn't like when we traded Bautista, but I'm certainly not going to pretend it was because I thought he would turn into a monster. I thought he was a nice UT guy to have around.
The Pirates traded for Andy Laroche. They didn't want to pay Bautista $2 million in arbitration to be the back up. Two years later, he hit 50 HRs.
The Pirates traded for Andy Laroche. They didn't want to pay Bautista $2 million in arbitration to be the back up. Two years later, he hit 50 HRs.
Cole
pitchers are just more unpredictable than hitters in my view.
Some pitchers come up young and dominate from the get go: Clemens, Kershaw, Kerry Wood.
Others struggle with consistency yet show flashes of domination, Cole, Schwerzer.
Others struggle longer before putting everything together like Randy Johnson. Jason Schmidt is a Pirate example.
The Pirates are limited to looking for good pitchers through the draft and for pitchers that have talent but failed in some way (AJ, Liriano) and look for bouncebacks from them.
That is a tough way to build a staff.
I also think a team in the Pirates position can't focus on a single type of pitcher (pitch to contact or hard thrower). It kills me that the team plays in park that was built for left handed pitchers yet they have not developed one the entire time they have been in PNC (please someone prove me wrong on that one).
Some pitchers come up young and dominate from the get go: Clemens, Kershaw, Kerry Wood.
Others struggle with consistency yet show flashes of domination, Cole, Schwerzer.
Others struggle longer before putting everything together like Randy Johnson. Jason Schmidt is a Pirate example.
The Pirates are limited to looking for good pitchers through the draft and for pitchers that have talent but failed in some way (AJ, Liriano) and look for bouncebacks from them.
That is a tough way to build a staff.
I also think a team in the Pirates position can't focus on a single type of pitcher (pitch to contact or hard thrower). It kills me that the team plays in park that was built for left handed pitchers yet they have not developed one the entire time they have been in PNC (please someone prove me wrong on that one).
Cole
Cole tantalized all of us in 2015. He pitched like a #1 starter (an ace), he was young, and he had some swagger. I don't know about you, but I thought that 2015 was the beginning of a string of good seasons to come. Unfortunately, 2015 was the best of what he had to offer (in Pittsburgh). I don't know if it was the nagging injuries, disagreements with coaching, anger at playing on a team that was missing a few horses to compete at a high level, but in 2016 and 2017, Cole was, at best, average. In my view, he often appeared 'ticked off' instead of displaying swagger.
So --- I was fine with trading Cole. He didn't appear to be a pitcher who could anchor a staff. It didn't appear like he wanted to be in Pittsburgh. And, with respect to the return received from Houston, it is about what I would have expected.
What I am a bit confused about are the money issues that folks are now raising. Did anyone really believe that Cole would be in Pittsburgh after he reached free agency? And, even more so, that he would be here if he actually was pitching well? Cole, understandably, would have parlayed his success in Pittsburgh into a rewarding contract with a team that could have paid more. Also, at what time did Pittsburgh not pay Cole what he was worth when he was in Pittsburgh? The Pirates signed him to a lucrative bonus when he was drafted. He earned what nearly every player does in his pre-arbitration years; barely above the minimum. And, once he qualified for arbitration, he earned the equivalent of arbitration eligible dollars. The only reason he didn't earn more in his arbitration years is because he underperformed. Lastly, in Houston, he is earning the same as he did in Pittsburgh. It is a fair criticism that Nutting has not provided ample financial resources to regularly field a competitive team in Pittsburgh, but Cole was not underpaid.
I do, however, understand why folks are questioning the Pirates current pitching philosophy. The Pirates experienced more success than most in 2013 - 2015 with pitchers who turned it around or got the most out of their talent. Fastball command, pitching to contact, fielder positioning and such all appeared to be working. The Pirates appeared to be ahead of the curve. However, few teams now rely upon the fastball as much as the Pirates, and the team lacks the defensive talent to be a pitch to contact staff. So, I am hoping that the Bucs are reanalyzing their current approaches to see if changes may be needed.
With respect to Morton, I probably liked him as much as most, but I wasn't sorry to see him go. Just way too inconsistent. But, he did flash signs of talent and did pitch well for the team in short stretches. I am really happy for Morton that he is now pitching well. I wish him much current and future success.
I offer few closing comments:
1) With Cole now pitching like one of the best pitchers in baseball, with so many teams needing pitching this off-season, with everyone knowing that he was on the market, and with the Bucs return from Houston indicating that he could be obtained for less than the best prospects in your organization, why were more teams not in on Cole? Why didn't they see what Houston may have seen? In short, other teams also under-evaluated Cole's potential.
2) How much time must pass before the Bucs trade a player and the player subsequently experiences success in another organization before all of the failure (for the player achieving his potential in Pittsburgh) can be blamed on the Pirates failing to recognize his potential. Morton did not succeed before he came Pittsburgh and he did not succeed at his next stop in Philadelphia, but he is now pitching well. Bautista was not performing all that well in Pittsburgh and did not really catch fire in Toronto until the end of the second season after he was traded.
3) A decade or so ago I thought Oliver Perez was going to be a top flight LH starter in Pittsburgh for years to come. His slider was often unhittable. While he is still in baseball, it has been a long time since anyone considered him as anything more than a LOOGEY. In short, there are few guarantees with pitchers or any baseball player for that matter. Matt Harvey looked like a top of rotation starter; now he is available to all --- but, 2 years from now, perhaps he is another Morton.
4) Exactly how did the Pirates acquire a pitcher like Trevor Williams by trading a pitching coach?
So --- I was fine with trading Cole. He didn't appear to be a pitcher who could anchor a staff. It didn't appear like he wanted to be in Pittsburgh. And, with respect to the return received from Houston, it is about what I would have expected.
What I am a bit confused about are the money issues that folks are now raising. Did anyone really believe that Cole would be in Pittsburgh after he reached free agency? And, even more so, that he would be here if he actually was pitching well? Cole, understandably, would have parlayed his success in Pittsburgh into a rewarding contract with a team that could have paid more. Also, at what time did Pittsburgh not pay Cole what he was worth when he was in Pittsburgh? The Pirates signed him to a lucrative bonus when he was drafted. He earned what nearly every player does in his pre-arbitration years; barely above the minimum. And, once he qualified for arbitration, he earned the equivalent of arbitration eligible dollars. The only reason he didn't earn more in his arbitration years is because he underperformed. Lastly, in Houston, he is earning the same as he did in Pittsburgh. It is a fair criticism that Nutting has not provided ample financial resources to regularly field a competitive team in Pittsburgh, but Cole was not underpaid.
I do, however, understand why folks are questioning the Pirates current pitching philosophy. The Pirates experienced more success than most in 2013 - 2015 with pitchers who turned it around or got the most out of their talent. Fastball command, pitching to contact, fielder positioning and such all appeared to be working. The Pirates appeared to be ahead of the curve. However, few teams now rely upon the fastball as much as the Pirates, and the team lacks the defensive talent to be a pitch to contact staff. So, I am hoping that the Bucs are reanalyzing their current approaches to see if changes may be needed.
With respect to Morton, I probably liked him as much as most, but I wasn't sorry to see him go. Just way too inconsistent. But, he did flash signs of talent and did pitch well for the team in short stretches. I am really happy for Morton that he is now pitching well. I wish him much current and future success.
I offer few closing comments:
1) With Cole now pitching like one of the best pitchers in baseball, with so many teams needing pitching this off-season, with everyone knowing that he was on the market, and with the Bucs return from Houston indicating that he could be obtained for less than the best prospects in your organization, why were more teams not in on Cole? Why didn't they see what Houston may have seen? In short, other teams also under-evaluated Cole's potential.
2) How much time must pass before the Bucs trade a player and the player subsequently experiences success in another organization before all of the failure (for the player achieving his potential in Pittsburgh) can be blamed on the Pirates failing to recognize his potential. Morton did not succeed before he came Pittsburgh and he did not succeed at his next stop in Philadelphia, but he is now pitching well. Bautista was not performing all that well in Pittsburgh and did not really catch fire in Toronto until the end of the second season after he was traded.
3) A decade or so ago I thought Oliver Perez was going to be a top flight LH starter in Pittsburgh for years to come. His slider was often unhittable. While he is still in baseball, it has been a long time since anyone considered him as anything more than a LOOGEY. In short, there are few guarantees with pitchers or any baseball player for that matter. Matt Harvey looked like a top of rotation starter; now he is available to all --- but, 2 years from now, perhaps he is another Morton.
4) Exactly how did the Pirates acquire a pitcher like Trevor Williams by trading a pitching coach?
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SammyKhalifa
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Cole
Yeah, everything gets turned into a "money issue." We kept Morton all that time despite underperforming "because of the money." We got rid of him "because of the money." Having things both ways is awesome!
Cole
61535F5F4B795A535E5B5453320 wrote: Yeah, everything gets turned into a "money issue." We kept Morton all that time despite underperforming "because of the money." We got rid of him "because of the money." Having things both ways is awesome!
Because every move this organization makes is a money issue! If you don’t believe $$$ is the major motivator for ownership, I got a bridge to sell you ;D
They recently gave good prospects to shed salary.....they cut a useful bullpen piece to save a measly 600k.
Because every move this organization makes is a money issue! If you don’t believe $$$ is the major motivator for ownership, I got a bridge to sell you ;D
They recently gave good prospects to shed salary.....they cut a useful bullpen piece to save a measly 600k.
Cole
It's just silly to credit this org for Burnett and Liriano and then turn around and not challenge them for what is happening with Cole and Morton. Talk about wanting it both ways.
AJ and Frankie was "Searage Magic and NH genius!" Cole and Morton are oh well, not our fault.
It doesn't matter at all if fans wanted "ground Chuck" out of town. It's not the fans job to get the most out of players. Ground Chuck, as existed here, wasn't reliable. He spent 1/3 of each season on the DL and was erratic.
It doesn't matter if fans wanted Cole to stay. It's not the fans job to get the most out of players. It also doesn't matter if fans think the return was enough, or not enough. It's not the fans job to make trades.
The people who's job it is to actually do these things are being given passes.
AJ and Frankie was "Searage Magic and NH genius!" Cole and Morton are oh well, not our fault.
It doesn't matter at all if fans wanted "ground Chuck" out of town. It's not the fans job to get the most out of players. Ground Chuck, as existed here, wasn't reliable. He spent 1/3 of each season on the DL and was erratic.
It doesn't matter if fans wanted Cole to stay. It's not the fans job to get the most out of players. It also doesn't matter if fans think the return was enough, or not enough. It's not the fans job to make trades.
The people who's job it is to actually do these things are being given passes.
Cole
It's somewhat ironic that when a Pirates pitcher that is either mediocre or underachieving goes to Houston, they all the sudden are fixed and becomes either above average in Morton or a stud in Cole. Maybe its time to figure out the Houston formula and implement it and move on from Ray? Just a suggestion.