It's always all or nothing with you. Defense is not more important than hitting. Of course not.
but terrible defense by Bell & Moran are like dragging around anchors. If you don't buy into UZR, that's fine. DRS hates them both too. Our eyes all agree they're very bad fielders.
So tell me what a player like that needs to hit in order to be a GOOD player? in your mind. Then, tell me what you think the probability is that it happens (they hit that well)
Nothing's going to change about Bell or Moran's defense much. They will always be bad. Some years may be better (Bell last year) some years may be terrible (bell this year) but they will never be average fielders.
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Bell was alright last year with his .800 OPS. I would want that OPS closer to .900. If a player OPS's over .900, they will find a position for them. If they are at .775 they will probably find a spot too.
Don't you think Bell had a good season last year? If you don't, most do. His defense was bad last year, maybe not this bad, but it certainly wasn't great. But he hit 26 HRs, drove in 90 runs and had an OPS of .800. People didn't complain. Why are people complaining now? Is it because of his still bad defense or the fact that his OPS is .710 and he has 4 HRs?
Good hitting can make up for bad defense. Of course you want a player who can do both very well. Moran and Bell better start hitting because their gloves certainly won't keep them in the line up, but their bats can.
Did you open that link? Some Hall of Famers on that list and many guys played well over ten, fifteen years.
Don't you think Bell had a good season last year? If you don't, most do. His defense was bad last year, maybe not this bad, but it certainly wasn't great. But he hit 26 HRs, drove in 90 runs and had an OPS of .800. People didn't complain. Why are people complaining now? Is it because of his still bad defense or the fact that his OPS is .710 and he has 4 HRs?
Good hitting can make up for bad defense. Of course you want a player who can do both very well. Moran and Bell better start hitting because their gloves certainly won't keep them in the line up, but their bats can.
Did you open that link? Some Hall of Famers on that list and many guys played well over ten, fifteen years.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Honestly, Bell didn't have a good season last year. He put up an OPS+ of 108. It wasn't terrible, but it's not what you're wanting from your poor fielding first baseman either. Josh Bell is still looking for an offensive season that's as good as John Jaso's career mark. That should upset some people...
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
747D75646A100 wrote: It's always all or nothing with you. Defense is not more important than hitting. Of course not.
but terrible defense by Bell & Moran are like dragging around anchors. If you don't buy into UZR, that's fine. DRS hates them both too. Our eyes all agree they're very bad fielders.
So tell me what a player like that needs to hit in order to be a GOOD player? in your mind. Then, tell me what you think the probability is that it happens (they hit that well)
Nothing's going to change about Bell or Moran's defense much. They will always be bad. Some years may be better (Bell last year) some years may be terrible (bell this year) but they will never be average fielders.
In the AL, there is room for a crap defender in a lineup. He is penciled in as the DH. People do ignore defense of a player if said player is having a good year offensively. That can't be said for our weak defenders. Moran, I have to be honest - is doing better than I would have thought. Bell and Polanco are terrible defensively and aren't doing the job offensively. Bell - his last three games, there is some degree of hope. He had drawn a bunch of walks. Not exactly what you want from a power source, but its a start.
Dog will continue to defend or make excuses (starting rotation) because that's his desired/self defined role.
When you have a questionable roster that has flaws throughout, one of the things a team has to do well is play defense. Poor defense can lose you more games and have a knack of causing a downward spiral. It sinks into the minds of the guys on the mound too.
but terrible defense by Bell & Moran are like dragging around anchors. If you don't buy into UZR, that's fine. DRS hates them both too. Our eyes all agree they're very bad fielders.
So tell me what a player like that needs to hit in order to be a GOOD player? in your mind. Then, tell me what you think the probability is that it happens (they hit that well)
Nothing's going to change about Bell or Moran's defense much. They will always be bad. Some years may be better (Bell last year) some years may be terrible (bell this year) but they will never be average fielders.
In the AL, there is room for a crap defender in a lineup. He is penciled in as the DH. People do ignore defense of a player if said player is having a good year offensively. That can't be said for our weak defenders. Moran, I have to be honest - is doing better than I would have thought. Bell and Polanco are terrible defensively and aren't doing the job offensively. Bell - his last three games, there is some degree of hope. He had drawn a bunch of walks. Not exactly what you want from a power source, but its a start.
Dog will continue to defend or make excuses (starting rotation) because that's his desired/self defined role.
When you have a questionable roster that has flaws throughout, one of the things a team has to do well is play defense. Poor defense can lose you more games and have a knack of causing a downward spiral. It sinks into the minds of the guys on the mound too.
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
7F767E6F611B0 wrote: I don't understand the rotation narrative. Yes, we need more top end talent.
The numbers their putting up and defense behind them don't back up the "rotation sucks" narrative. The bullpen sucks, no doubt. The defense is terrible, no doubt.
I have problems with the position players we're running out there and the bullpen much more than the starters.
Williams has always been the guy that didn't belong and was pitching way over his periphrials and stuff. He should be optioned and Kingham recalled.
There is no consistency from this starting rotation. They labor just to get through six innings. This isn't KC when they won the Series. Starters go six and then you hand it over to Herrera, Davis and Holland. The bullpen here isn't close to that. There isn't any top end talent in this rotation that could be considered top end of the rotation types. This rotation isn't good because it lacks top end talent. A rotation built mostly of 4 and 5s don't tend to generate good results.
The numbers their putting up and defense behind them don't back up the "rotation sucks" narrative. The bullpen sucks, no doubt. The defense is terrible, no doubt.
I have problems with the position players we're running out there and the bullpen much more than the starters.
Williams has always been the guy that didn't belong and was pitching way over his periphrials and stuff. He should be optioned and Kingham recalled.
There is no consistency from this starting rotation. They labor just to get through six innings. This isn't KC when they won the Series. Starters go six and then you hand it over to Herrera, Davis and Holland. The bullpen here isn't close to that. There isn't any top end talent in this rotation that could be considered top end of the rotation types. This rotation isn't good because it lacks top end talent. A rotation built mostly of 4 and 5s don't tend to generate good results.
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SteadyFreddy
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Yea at some point when you go 6-18 and lose 8 straight series some kind of changes need to be made. You can’t continue to keep going status quo and expect things to get better because they won’t. Whether those moves are calling up Kang which should be done, calling Kingham back up and leaving him in the rotation or continuing to shuffle the batting order something has to be done here. This season is going to be over in another week or two in terms of the Pirates being relevant in the standings if they don’t start turning this mess around soon. You absolutely have to win 2 if 3 from the crappy Reds this weekend. You haven’t won a series in 5 weeks you better do it against this team this weekend.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
4858596E7878741B0 wrote: It's always all or nothing with you. Defense is not more important than hitting. Of course not.
but terrible defense by Bell & Moran are like dragging around anchors. If you don't buy into UZR, that's fine. DRS hates them both too. Our eyes all agree they're very bad fielders.
So tell me what a player like that needs to hit in order to be a GOOD player? in your mind. Then, tell me what you think the probability is that it happens (they hit that well)
Nothing's going to change about Bell or Moran's defense much. They will always be bad. Some years may be better (Bell last year) some years may be terrible (bell this year) but they will never be average fielders.
In the AL, there is room for a crap defender in a lineup. He is penciled in as the DH. People do ignore defense of a player if said player is having a good year offensively. That can't be said for our weak defenders. Moran, I have to be honest - is doing better than I would have thought. Bell and Polanco are terrible defensively and aren't doing the job offensively. Bell - his last three games, there is some degree of hope. He had drawn a bunch of walks. Not exactly what you want from a power source, but its a start.
Dog will continue to defend or make excuses (starting rotation) because that's his desired/self defined role.
When you have a questionable roster that has flaws throughout, one of the things a team has to do well is play defense. Poor defense can lose you more games and have a knack of causing a downward spiral. It sinks into the minds of the guys on the mound too.
You really need to stop. You are attacking me even when you agree with me. Not sure why the Admins haven't noticed yet?
but terrible defense by Bell & Moran are like dragging around anchors. If you don't buy into UZR, that's fine. DRS hates them both too. Our eyes all agree they're very bad fielders.
So tell me what a player like that needs to hit in order to be a GOOD player? in your mind. Then, tell me what you think the probability is that it happens (they hit that well)
Nothing's going to change about Bell or Moran's defense much. They will always be bad. Some years may be better (Bell last year) some years may be terrible (bell this year) but they will never be average fielders.
In the AL, there is room for a crap defender in a lineup. He is penciled in as the DH. People do ignore defense of a player if said player is having a good year offensively. That can't be said for our weak defenders. Moran, I have to be honest - is doing better than I would have thought. Bell and Polanco are terrible defensively and aren't doing the job offensively. Bell - his last three games, there is some degree of hope. He had drawn a bunch of walks. Not exactly what you want from a power source, but its a start.
Dog will continue to defend or make excuses (starting rotation) because that's his desired/self defined role.
When you have a questionable roster that has flaws throughout, one of the things a team has to do well is play defense. Poor defense can lose you more games and have a knack of causing a downward spiral. It sinks into the minds of the guys on the mound too.
You really need to stop. You are attacking me even when you agree with me. Not sure why the Admins haven't noticed yet?
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
5C786C64610D0 wrote: Boy howdy, would I ever like to see changes. Of course my biggest wish would be a change of ownership, but we all know that's as imminently likely as cockroach extinction.
Clint needs to go for the near countless reasons cited on this board regarding personnel management. He's delusional and his shelf life has expired.
As others have mentioned I'd like to see Bell and Polanco given remedial stints at AAA. Let Osuna have a few weeks of playing first base and see what he can do. His defense can't be worse than Bell's, and his hitting just might play.
I'd try to move Freese and Nova for a return of a couple of experienced and capable bullpen arms. I would even use Polanco as trade bait if the return was right. If you can get something for SRod take it. If not, release him and bring up one of our infield prospects from Indy.
The only thing I wouldn't mess with is our young starting staff. At age 25-26 I don't see any reason to call any of them a failure. In fact The Athletic's Enos Sarris rated our young starters in the top 151 MLB starters projected for the rest of the season with these rankings:
#24 Jameson Taillon
#57 Joe Musgrove
#71 Nick Kingham
#102 Chad Kuhl
#117 Trevor Williams
Those rankings correspond to a respectable if not particularly impressive rotation with Taillon being a low #1, Musgrove a low #2, Kingham a high #3, Kuhl a high #4 and Williams a low #4. The addition of an experienced true top of the rotation arm would make this young staff look really good with a significant chance for improvement with maturation of the young arms.
We had a real #1 starter (Cole) but this coaching staff could never get it out of him. It's obvious Hurdle needs to go, he's failing these players development from Cole to Polanco to Bell and on and on. I'm so sick of the excuses, there is no excuse, fire him and probably NH and hire some real baseball execs.
Clint needs to go for the near countless reasons cited on this board regarding personnel management. He's delusional and his shelf life has expired.
As others have mentioned I'd like to see Bell and Polanco given remedial stints at AAA. Let Osuna have a few weeks of playing first base and see what he can do. His defense can't be worse than Bell's, and his hitting just might play.
I'd try to move Freese and Nova for a return of a couple of experienced and capable bullpen arms. I would even use Polanco as trade bait if the return was right. If you can get something for SRod take it. If not, release him and bring up one of our infield prospects from Indy.
The only thing I wouldn't mess with is our young starting staff. At age 25-26 I don't see any reason to call any of them a failure. In fact The Athletic's Enos Sarris rated our young starters in the top 151 MLB starters projected for the rest of the season with these rankings:
#24 Jameson Taillon
#57 Joe Musgrove
#71 Nick Kingham
#102 Chad Kuhl
#117 Trevor Williams
Those rankings correspond to a respectable if not particularly impressive rotation with Taillon being a low #1, Musgrove a low #2, Kingham a high #3, Kuhl a high #4 and Williams a low #4. The addition of an experienced true top of the rotation arm would make this young staff look really good with a significant chance for improvement with maturation of the young arms.
We had a real #1 starter (Cole) but this coaching staff could never get it out of him. It's obvious Hurdle needs to go, he's failing these players development from Cole to Polanco to Bell and on and on. I'm so sick of the excuses, there is no excuse, fire him and probably NH and hire some real baseball execs.
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Bobster21
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Hurdle isn't going anywhere after beginning a 4-year extension. No way Nutting will pay him to not manage while paying someone else to manage. It was such a farce to extend Hurdle. He was already a bad manager and the team would have benefited by replacing him. And now we're seeing the expected result of retaining a bad manager: more bad managing.
6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: Hurdle isn't going anywhere after beginning a 4-year extension. No way Nutting will pay him to not manage while paying someone else to manage. It was such a farce to extend Hurdle. He was already a bad manager and the team would have benefited by replacing him. And now we're seeing the expected result of retaining a bad manager: more bad managing.
If NH had wanted Hurdle to go, Nutting would not have stood in the way. Keeping Hurdle (and signing him for 4 years) is another reason that NH should be gone. Neal thinks Hurdle is a perfectly good manager for this team.
If NH had wanted Hurdle to go, Nutting would not have stood in the way. Keeping Hurdle (and signing him for 4 years) is another reason that NH should be gone. Neal thinks Hurdle is a perfectly good manager for this team.