Pirates vs. Brewers - 8/6 - Game Thread

[BenM]

In an interesting coincidence, at this point in the season 1/8 of their losses (8) have been by eight runs or more.

[SteadyFreddy]

Apparently Coonelly came out and did an interview the other day and said both Injuries and payroll are not an excuse for what has happened after the break. Is Frank just blowing smoke saying this comment or does this mean both Neal and Clint actually both could be in trouble. The Pirates are now 4-20 since the All Star Break and have now lost 8 straight series and are well on their way to 90-95 losses if this thing stays at this current pace. It’s going to be very difficult for Coonelly and Nutting to justify making no changes at all with Hurdle and the coaching staff or the GM if this horrific play and losing continues the rest of the season. This is just a flat out embarrassment and disgrace and somebody at some point needs to answer for it and pay the price. You can’t sit back and just lose this much and just watch it happen and do absolutely nothing.

[Osushawn]

At least it appears Brault pitched well

[NJBucsFan]

I agree that changes should be made, and I'm not the biggest Hurdle fan in the world, but there's only so much responsibility he can take when he's only been given half a pitching staff. Frankly, it's a miracle they were actually in it at the break.

[Bobster21]

7571794E58487D5A553B0 wrote: I agree that changes should be made, and I'm not the biggest Hurdle fan in the world, but there's only so much responsibility he can take when he's only been given half a pitching staff. Frankly, it's a miracle they were actually in it at the break.
Agreed. But a better manager would improve the team even within the financial constraints forced on them by Nutting. Two examples of Hurdle being married to his formulas.



(1) The Trib today reported that Hurdle said his instinct told him to sit Bell for a few days. That's fine and probably overdue. Yet his instinct hadn't told him that as long as Bell was battling this awful slump he shouldn't be a hole in the lineup batting 4th. In his last 23 games he's 13 for 81 (.160) with just 9 singles and 4 doubles. It's fine to battle thru a slump but that's just too long to be hitting 4th while that's going on. But Hurdle designated Bell his clean up hitter prior to the season and that was that. He doesn't want to change the formula. Even the day before the benching he was still hitting 4th.



(2) It's not Hurdle's fault that he's been given an abysmal BP. But it is his fault that he keeps his outstanding closer on the sidelines every game because he can't find a save situation while games are being lost due to the rest of the BP being inadequate. The formula says the closer should only be used in save situations. So Vazquez has now pitched just once since July 25 while games have been lost (2-9 in that span) because the other relievers can't keep the games close enough. Other managers follow the same formula. But Hurdle can't afford to follow the same formula as everyone else, especially when others have the talent to make it work but he doesn't.



Hurdle's team is at a severe disadvantage because of Nutting. So they need a better than average manager who won't necessarily follow formulas when they aren't working. But that's what they have in Hurdle which only exasperates the problem.

[Ecbucs]

062B26373021367675440 wrote: I agree that changes should be made, and I'm not the biggest Hurdle fan in the world, but there's only so much responsibility he can take when he's only been given half a pitching staff. Frankly, it's a miracle they were actually in it at the break.
Agreed. But a better manager would improve the team even within the financial constraints forced on them by Nutting. Two examples of Hurdle being married to his formulas.



(1) The Trib today reported that Hurdle said his instinct told him to sit Bell for a few days. That's fine and probably overdue. Yet his instinct hadn't told him that as long as Bell was battling this awful slump he shouldn't be a hole in the lineup batting 4th. In his last 23 games he's 13 for 81 (.160) with just 9 singles and 4 doubles. It's fine to battle thru a slump but that's just too long to be hitting 4th while that's going on. But Hurdle designated Bell his clean up hitter prior to the season and that was that. He doesn't want to change the formula. Even the day before the benching he was still hitting 4th.



(2) It's not Hurdle's fault that he's been given an abysmal BP. But it is his fault that he keeps his outstanding closer on the sidelines every game because he can't find a save situation while games are being lost due to the rest of the BP being inadequate. The formula says the closer should only be used in save situations. So Vazquez has now pitched just once since July 25 while games have been lost (2-9 in that span) because the other relievers can't keep the games close enough. Other managers follow the same formula. But Hurdle can't afford to follow the same formula as everyone else, especially when others have the talent to make it work but he doesn't. 



Hurdle's team is at a severe disadvantage because of Nutting. So they need a better than average manager who won't necessarily follow formulas when they aren't working. But that's what they have in Hurdle which only exasperates the problem.   


is there any reason to think anyone in the Pirate organization (non-player) is above average?

[JollyRoger]

002D20313627307073420 wrote: I agree that changes should be made, and I'm not the biggest Hurdle fan in the world, but there's only so much responsibility he can take when he's only been given half a pitching staff. Frankly, it's a miracle they were actually in it at the break.
Agreed. But a better manager would improve the team even within the financial constraints forced on them by Nutting. Two examples of Hurdle being married to his formulas.



(1) The Trib today reported that Hurdle said his instinct told him to sit Bell for a few days. That's fine and probably overdue. Yet his instinct hadn't told him that as long as Bell was battling this awful slump he shouldn't be a hole in the lineup batting 4th. In his last 23 games he's 13 for 81 (.160) with just 9 singles and 4 doubles. It's fine to battle thru a slump but that's just too long to be hitting 4th while that's going on. But Hurdle designated Bell his clean up hitter prior to the season and that was that. He doesn't want to change the formula. Even the day before the benching he was still hitting 4th.



(2) It's not Hurdle's fault that he's been given an abysmal BP. But it is his fault that he keeps his outstanding closer on the sidelines every game because he can't find a save situation while games are being lost due to the rest of the BP being inadequate. The formula says the closer should only be used in save situations. So Vazquez has now pitched just once since July 25 while games have been lost (2-9 in that span) because the other relievers can't keep the games close enough. Other managers follow the same formula. But Hurdle can't afford to follow the same formula as everyone else, especially when others have the talent to make it work but he doesn't. 



Hurdle's team is at a severe disadvantage because of Nutting. So they need a better than average manager who won't necessarily follow formulas when they aren't working. But that's what they have in Hurdle which only exasperates the problem.   


Bobster: you and I agree on most subjects but when it comes to Hurdle we will have to agree to disagree. With regards to resting players and his Sunday lineup; that is the same approach that both Leyland and Tanner used yet they are not criticized. I didn’t hear those complaints from2013-2015

With regards to Vazquez; when he has been brought into non save situations he has not been as effective. Bottom line what the heck to you expect Hurdle to do when you have only 1 consistent reliever; use him everyday?

No manager could do any better than Hurdle has done with this poor excuse for a roster.

The main fault lies with Nutting with NH sharing blame for poor drafts and trades

[Bobster21]

6A4F4C4C59724F474552200 wrote: I agree that changes should be made, and I'm not the biggest Hurdle fan in the world, but there's only so much responsibility he can take when he's only been given half a pitching staff. Frankly, it's a miracle they were actually in it at the break.
Agreed. But a better manager would improve the team even within the financial constraints forced on them by Nutting. Two examples of Hurdle being married to his formulas.



(1) The Trib today reported that Hurdle said his instinct told him to sit Bell for a few days. That's fine and probably overdue. Yet his instinct hadn't told him that as long as Bell was battling this awful slump he shouldn't be a hole in the lineup batting 4th. In his last 23 games he's 13 for 81 (.160) with just 9 singles and 4 doubles. It's fine to battle thru a slump but that's just too long to be hitting 4th while that's going on. But Hurdle designated Bell his clean up hitter prior to the season and that was that. He doesn't want to change the formula. Even the day before the benching he was still hitting 4th.



(2) It's not Hurdle's fault that he's been given an abysmal BP. But it is his fault that he keeps his outstanding closer on the sidelines every game because he can't find a save situation while games are being lost due to the rest of the BP being inadequate. The formula says the closer should only be used in save situations. So Vazquez has now pitched just once since July 25 while games have been lost (2-9 in that span) because the other relievers can't keep the games close enough. Other managers follow the same formula. But Hurdle can't afford to follow the same formula as everyone else, especially when others have the talent to make it work but he doesn't. 



Hurdle's team is at a severe disadvantage because of Nutting. So they need a better than average manager who won't necessarily follow formulas when they aren't working. But that's what they have in Hurdle which only exasperates the problem.   


Bobster: you and I agree on most subjects but when it comes to Hurdle we will have to agree to disagree. With regards to resting players and his Sunday lineup; that is the same approach that both Leyland and Tanner used yet they are not criticized. I didn’t hear those complaints from2013-2015

With regards to Vazquez; when he has been brought into non save situations he has not been as effective. Bottom line what the heck to you expect Hurdle to do when you have only 1 consistent reliever; use him everyday?

No manager could do any better than Hurdle has done with this poor excuse for a roster.

The main fault lies with Nutting with NH sharing blame for poor drafts and trades
I agree that the main fault lies with Nutting and NH. And as you noted, Hurdle can't use Vazquez everyday. But don't you think he could use him more than once since July 25 while they have gone 2-9 with so many late inning runs being surrendered that made Pirate comebacks too little too late? I'm also aware that other managers have used Sunday lineups but with much deeper rosters. In other years, Hurdle has essentially wasted games by starting everyone on the bench when the bench was not talented enough to make more than a weak lineup. This year has been different in that regard IMHO. There has not been much drop off between catchers, OFers, or using Osuna at 1B/3B so even Sunday lineups have been as competitive as any other Hurdle could write. I just don't like to defend Hurdle for doing the same thing Tanner and Leyland did when they had stronger rosters to make it work and Hurdle didn't. It goes back to my complaint about Hurdle adhering to a formula. Sunday is the day to empty the bench. That's fine when the bench is strong (which it has been this year). But it's a poor policy when it practically guarantees a loss.

[JollyRoger]

As you state this year the bench has been exceptionable; so the “Sunday lineup” has not been as detrimental. However if That bench is poor and results in extra losses; is that the fault of Hurdle for giving the bench players a chance and providing some playing time. The problem is not his. If those players are not adequate enough to be on a ML roster then it is up to the GM with backing from ownership to acquire a more talented bench.

I guarantee that no manager could do better than Hurdle with the BP he has been given.

He can’t explode at those players because he knows that they shouldn’t even be on the roster. Just like tonight with the newest BP failure Markel. “Here’s the ball kid, try to hold them at bay, no one else has”

[Bobster21]

416467677259646C6E790B0 wrote: As you state this year the bench has been exceptionable; so the “Sunday lineup” has not been as detrimental. However if That bench is poor and results in extra losses; is that the fault of Hurdle for giving the bench players a chance and providing some playing time. The problem is not his. If those players are not adequate enough to be on a ML roster then it is up to the GM with backing from ownership to acquire a more talented bench.

I guarantee that no manager could do better than Hurdle with the  BP he has been given.

He can’t explode at those players because he knows that they shouldn’t even be on the roster. Just like tonight with the newest BP failure Markel. “Here’s the ball kid, try to hold them at bay, no one else has”
My solution to having a weak bench (which has not been an issue this year) would be to avoid days when all of them start together. Sundays are day games after night games  so the #2 catcher is going to start. So if the bench is weak, don't start more than 1 other reserve on that day. Find another day to start another reserve and another day for another. That way the lineup is never weakened to the point of being noncompetitive. Hurdle always followed the formula that the bench players start on Sunday for better or worse. But that's not a formula that needs to be followed.