7D594D45402C0 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
Penguins v. Pirates
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Penguins v. Pirates
7A4844445062414845404F48290 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
without that collective bargaining agreement, the NHL would have about 10 teams now.
Until teams in MLB are ready to fold there isn't going to be a major change in the MLB collective bargaining agreement. It works okay for most teams.
IMO, the Pirates would be better on the field but are too timid financially as it looks like making a profit year in and year out is by far the first priority.
Which in a lot of ways doesn't make sense with many of their actions. If profits are the priority, why worry about upgrading facilities in DR?
Why go all in on sabermetrics and analytics at one point? Why give big over slot bonuses for a couple of years?
Did they think at one point they could win and then decide it was unlikely?
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
without that collective bargaining agreement, the NHL would have about 10 teams now.
Until teams in MLB are ready to fold there isn't going to be a major change in the MLB collective bargaining agreement. It works okay for most teams.
IMO, the Pirates would be better on the field but are too timid financially as it looks like making a profit year in and year out is by far the first priority.
Which in a lot of ways doesn't make sense with many of their actions. If profits are the priority, why worry about upgrading facilities in DR?
Why go all in on sabermetrics and analytics at one point? Why give big over slot bonuses for a couple of years?
Did they think at one point they could win and then decide it was unlikely?
Penguins v. Pirates
6C5E52524674575E5356595E3F0 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
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BucsFaninGA
Penguins v. Pirates
Quail you nailed it Ownership is the key! I'm hoping that McScrooge is out of Pittsburgh soon! As long as he owns the Pirates, it will be as is.... 
Beat'em Bucs
Beat'em Bucs
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Penguins v. Pirates
0E2A3E36335F0 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
Well definitely, management still matters. Every league has that team that manages to do everything right vs. those that Cleveland Brown everything up.
I guess I am looking at in the other direction and that in baseball, a run like the Penguins have had would not even be possible here--no matter who the owner or what their intentions were. You're seeing that across baseball where "well run" teams in cities like ours are now paying for it, and it's not like those management teams have suddenly turned stupid or decided they didn't "want to win." That to me is a deeper and more depressing problem than one bad owner or GM.
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
Well definitely, management still matters. Every league has that team that manages to do everything right vs. those that Cleveland Brown everything up.
I guess I am looking at in the other direction and that in baseball, a run like the Penguins have had would not even be possible here--no matter who the owner or what their intentions were. You're seeing that across baseball where "well run" teams in cities like ours are now paying for it, and it's not like those management teams have suddenly turned stupid or decided they didn't "want to win." That to me is a deeper and more depressing problem than one bad owner or GM.
Penguins v. Pirates
02303C3C281A39303D383730510 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
Well definitely, management still matters. Every league has that team that manages to do everything right vs. those that Cleveland Brown everything up.
I guess I am looking at in the other direction and that in baseball, a run like the Penguins have had would not even be possible here--no matter who the owner or what their intentions were. You're seeing that across baseball where "well run" teams in cities like ours are now paying for it, and it's not like those management teams have suddenly turned stupid or decided they didn't "want to win." That to me is a deeper and more depressing problem than one bad owner or GM.
You know what I wouldn't mind "paying for it later" if we actually went for it! I get tired of just trying to be competitive. Hope isn't a good business model. Nobody is expecting the Pirates to suddenly spend like the Yankees. Baseball economics isn't changing anytime soon. The sport is flush with cash and I'm sure MLB really doesn't care if the Pirates aren't spending.
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
I agree for the most part.
But the BIGGEST difference between where they are is the CBA. Hockey sacrificed a season for future success, while in baseball the majority of teams rolled over. If the NHL were run like MLB, Sid and Geno--and success that comes with them--would NOT be playing in Pittsburgh today. At best the Pens would have been like the Kansas City Royals, having their nice run and then sinking back to the depths. The original question was what made the Penguins able to be perennial contenders and not the Pirates. The answer is the lockout/strike.
And while there's no question that the NHL has a more parity friendly CBA than MLB, still the Pens have currently made the playoffs for 12 consecutive seasons, while the next closest team has 6. What's the difference between the Phoenix Coyotes or Carolina Hurricane and the Pittsburgh Penguins? One is well run and dedicates all of its energy and resources to winning, the other two don't. Even with a more level playing field in the sport, it takes quality ownership more than anything else to be a perennial contender.
Well definitely, management still matters. Every league has that team that manages to do everything right vs. those that Cleveland Brown everything up.
I guess I am looking at in the other direction and that in baseball, a run like the Penguins have had would not even be possible here--no matter who the owner or what their intentions were. You're seeing that across baseball where "well run" teams in cities like ours are now paying for it, and it's not like those management teams have suddenly turned stupid or decided they didn't "want to win." That to me is a deeper and more depressing problem than one bad owner or GM.
You know what I wouldn't mind "paying for it later" if we actually went for it! I get tired of just trying to be competitive. Hope isn't a good business model. Nobody is expecting the Pirates to suddenly spend like the Yankees. Baseball economics isn't changing anytime soon. The sport is flush with cash and I'm sure MLB really doesn't care if the Pirates aren't spending.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Penguins v. Pirates
Well yeah like we've said over and over after the 98 win season is when it shoulda happened, for sure--not sure if they backed down or failed to make a deal they tried to make. Whichever, same result either way. We DID have an awesome run but failed to capitalize.
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Bobster21
Penguins v. Pirates
11232F2F3B092A232E2B2423420 wrote: Well yeah like we've said over and over after the 98 win season is when it shoulda happened, for sure--not sure if they backed down or failed to make a deal they tried to make. Whichever, same result either way. We DID have an awesome run but failed to capitalize.
I look at it a little differently. 2013 was great because it ended 20 years of losing with a fine 94-68 season and the WC game victory before losing the playoff series 3-2 to St.L. To me that was like the Steelers finally becoming relevant in 1972 after a history of futility and even winning a playoff game with Franco's immaculate reception before losing the next week. But it showed good things were coming. The 2014 Pirates won fewer games but at 88-74 they were again in the post season and we expected to do as well or better as the prior year. But it ended with the thud of an 8-0 WC game loss. That disappointment was followed happily by the 98-64 season of 2015, the 2nd best record in MLB and another WC game. But the Pirates took their 98 wins and went home after a quick 4-0 loss in that game. So in the past 2 post season appearances they had lasted only 2 games while being outscored a cumulative 12-0.
Those 3 seasons were nice but disappointing. But it seemed the Pirates were primed and ready to make an awesome run. The payroll was still low by MLB standards, another big bat and another productive starting pitcher could have put them over the top. Instead, they let Happ walk, traded Walker for Niese, added Vogelsong and replaced Alvarez with Jaso. This was a clear downgrading of the team. I think as fans we believed the Pirates were on the verge of making an awesome run but TBMITB chose to put a pin in it.
I look at it a little differently. 2013 was great because it ended 20 years of losing with a fine 94-68 season and the WC game victory before losing the playoff series 3-2 to St.L. To me that was like the Steelers finally becoming relevant in 1972 after a history of futility and even winning a playoff game with Franco's immaculate reception before losing the next week. But it showed good things were coming. The 2014 Pirates won fewer games but at 88-74 they were again in the post season and we expected to do as well or better as the prior year. But it ended with the thud of an 8-0 WC game loss. That disappointment was followed happily by the 98-64 season of 2015, the 2nd best record in MLB and another WC game. But the Pirates took their 98 wins and went home after a quick 4-0 loss in that game. So in the past 2 post season appearances they had lasted only 2 games while being outscored a cumulative 12-0.
Those 3 seasons were nice but disappointing. But it seemed the Pirates were primed and ready to make an awesome run. The payroll was still low by MLB standards, another big bat and another productive starting pitcher could have put them over the top. Instead, they let Happ walk, traded Walker for Niese, added Vogelsong and replaced Alvarez with Jaso. This was a clear downgrading of the team. I think as fans we believed the Pirates were on the verge of making an awesome run but TBMITB chose to put a pin in it.
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Roberto218
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:55 pm
Penguins v. Pirates
How about this: the Pirates should pay 90 to 100% of the major league salary average.
Penguins v. Pirates
Among everyone else's thoughts which are true, the Pens got four generational talents to build from (Mario, Jagr, Crosby, Malkin) with their picks and add to that MAF and Jordan Staal to a lesser extent. The Pens are in this win now mode and have been for the last six to seven years. They mortgage the future to acquire ready talent. Their GM isn't afraid to make moves, where as the Pirates GM is. I know, I know .. Chris Archer. A few years ago, the Pirates had their opportunity to build on success from that 95 win season, but chose to let go players and not acquire anything significant to keep the momentum going. They don't want to try.