Official Game Thread - 4/16 - Bucs @ Mets

[Carolina Bucco]

If the Pirates wanted to win Jones would have gone at least 7 innings tonight, and Skenes would be up within the next week.

That's what most normal teams would do.

The Pirates are not normal.

I have always been fearful that the Pirates would screw around with Skenes (and now Jones for that matter) and mess with their heads.

For the hundredth time, just bring up Skenes, make him your No. 1 starter, let him go at least 5 innings right out of the gate and LEAVE HIM ALONE.

And do the same thing with Jones.

The Pirates try to outthink everyone else and make it way too complicated.

You've got two young stud pitchers who are your two best pitchers by a mile RIGHT NOW. Don't overthink this !!!

[Doc]

I stopped caring when Jones was lifted. If you're trying to win, you don't pull an unhittable pitcher at 59 pitches when you're hanging on with only 1 run yourself. Especially when Jones has not even had a 90-pitch game this year and didn't seem a likely candidate for an extreme pitch limitation. This is the kind of decision a GM makes. And Cherington always seems to prefer to be in development-mode. He can point to this loss and explain that they are still developing Jones. As if losing the game didn't matter. Because as long as a GM remains in development-mode instead of contention-mode, he can't be deemed a failure for not being a serious contender. The Pirates like to try players in different positions, with different batting orders, with frequent rest, while looking at numerous pitchers each game. That's Grapefruit League ball. And the best thing about the Grapefruit League is that losing doesn't matter. And that's how the Pirates are managed. They did this last year too. So even when they got off to a good start, it didn't last. They've currently lost 5 of the last 7. I predicted 77 wins this year. I think they have the talent to do better but not the heart and desire of the management team.

Good rant. It's exactly true. Winning isn't the priority, from the owner down to the manager, whose bought into the organization's operational model. I'm sure the players want to win but they're not given what's necessary to do so, from payroll through philosophy. So why should we fans invest in the organization when the people in charge don't?

My biggest disappointment is with Cherington right now. He's acquired some really good young players who've made the team better, but he's not letting them be major league players. I can't figure out why. These are strong men who are being nursed instead of being turned loose. I don't know what he's saving them for. Few, if any, will be here six years from now anyway so why not get everything possible out of them from their first day in the big leagues?

[bucs607179]

I stopped caring when Jones was lifted. If you're trying to win, you don't pull an unhittable pitcher at 59 pitches when you're hanging on with only 1 run yourself. Especially when Jones has not even had a 90-pitch game this year and didn't seem a likely candidate for an extreme pitch limitation. This is the kind of decision a GM makes. And Cherington always seems to prefer to be in development-mode. He can point to this loss and explain that they are still developing Jones. As if losing the game didn't matter. Because as long as a GM remains in development-mode instead of contention-mode, he can't be deemed a failure for not being a serious contender. The Pirates like to try players in different positions, with different batting orders, with frequent rest, while looking at numerous pitchers each game. That's Grapefruit League ball. And the best thing about the Grapefruit League is that losing doesn't matter. And that's how the Pirates are managed. They did this last year too. So even when they got off to a good start, it didn't last. They've currently lost 5 of the last 7. I predicted 77 wins this year. I think they have the talent to do better but not the heart and desire of the management team.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Wildwoodcoach]

Joe is having a series to forget. The bizarre throw into the ground yesterday, then turning a single into a force out and hitting into a DP today.

I agree that the turning a single into a force out was bad, but what were the coaches doing?

[Wildwoodcoach]

When Jones was lifted after 5 innings, I turned it off.
Read in the PG that it was predetermined that he would be
pulled after 5.Their reasoning is that so many pitchers throughout
the Majors are having arm problems. They are going to bring both Jones and
Skenes along slowly. My reasoning is this. Why bring them along slowly for
someone else. Supposing they both turn out to be great pitchers, they won't be here
when the time comes to resign them. Gerrit Cole!!

[Bobster]

My opinion of Shelton is that he's a good, solid baseball man who knows the game inside and out. He can probably tell you whatever you want to know about hitting and fielding. He knows pitchers' strengths and weaknesses. But he lacks management skills. He can assess each player's individual skills but he doesn't know how to use them as a team to give them their best chance to win. I've read he relies heavily on analytics. Probably because he lacks instincts and good judgment on his own. His pitching decisions often seem to be made before the game even begins. X number of pitches or innings for the starter followed by specific relievers for specific innings regardless of the game situation or how they are performing. A rigid formula is easier than making judgments based on the situation. So there often appears to be no connection between player performance and the manager's decisions. (Who can forget 2022 when he Van Metered us to death?)

And this is obviously ok with Cherington. So much so that it appears he calls many of the day-to-day shots a manager would normally make. This is a trend in MLB now among many GMs. This is his 5th year as GM and he has enjoyed the job security of not being expected to contend. It's always about developing talent. The success of a season can be based on how a few young players perform or how much they inched toward .500. But if they are expected to contend and fail, then he looks bad. So we seem to be in another season where resting players and experimenting with batting orders, position flexibility, scheduled days off, limited innings and restrictive pitch counts take priority over trying to win games. I think Cherington will have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of developmental mode and into contention mode. As long as he can avoid going all in to win, the clock never starts ticking on his ability or inability to do so.

I know they are still 11-7 but I guess this loss in the 59-pitch Jones effort just set me off. And they've now lost 5 of the last 7. Looks all too familiar. When I discuss the Pirates with people who don't follow them but know a few names like Hayes or Reynolds or Cruz, I have to tell them that the team is probably less than the sum of its parts because of the way it is handled, both by the manager and the GM.

[bucs607179]

^^^^^^^^^
Agree 100%