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Author Topic: Huntington talks nonsense  (Read 3913 times)
Steve Zielinski
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« on: July 11, 2010, 08:43:02 AM »

Quote
"Both players have the ability to fit beyond this year," Huntington said. "Everything we do is a balance between short, medium and long term and, in this instance, JR is balancing between getting a veteran presence jump started -- important given the overall youth -- and continuing the development of a younger player by putting him in situations to be successful. Church has begun to swing the bat better as of late and has had some key hits, while Milledge continues to improve."

The link: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10192/1072055-63.stm#ixzz0tNfqOxJJ

I'm sure the young players are learning what it takes to play regularly in the ML by the manner in which Russell treats Church and Milledge.
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Steve Z
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 09:04:38 AM »

Church fitting in beyond this year...ah, now there's an encouraging thought.
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Steve Zielinski
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 09:11:01 AM »

Church fitting in beyond this year...ah, now there's an encouraging thought.

Church's contract status means: Another year and a half of the Milledge-Church platoon.
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 09:24:05 AM »

I think this is more evidence that Huntington relies on stats to the point of it being a fault.  He probably looks at Church's career numbers and is totally confident that he will eventually bounce back to those numbers(.800+ OPS vs righties). 
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GoBucs21
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 09:59:53 AM »

I think this is more evidence that Huntington relies on stats to the point of it being a fault.  He probably looks at Church's career numbers and is totally confident that he will eventually bounce back to those numbers(.800+ OPS vs righties). 
I don't.  There is no way one could use stats from this year and begin to make any case at all for Ryan Church.

Any discussion of Ryan Church beyond this week, let alone next year, is a slap in the face of Pirate fans.  Ryan Church and Iwamura are just the most recent examples of crapping on the fans.  They are examples of exactly how, and when, NH lost his way.  Players like Church have no business ever being on this team.  Keeping him on this team would be a travesty.
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 10:11:32 AM »

So this means the Pirates are considering keeping Church on the 40 man and offering him arbitration?
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 10:23:31 AM »

I think this is more evidence that Huntington relies on stats to the point of it being a fault.  He probably looks at Church's career numbers and is totally confident that he will eventually bounce back to those numbers(.800+ OPS vs righties). 
I don't.  There is no way one could use stats from this year and begin to make any case at all for Ryan Church.

Any discussion of Ryan Church beyond this week, let alone next year, is a slap in the face of Pirate fans.  Ryan Church and Iwamura are just the most recent examples of crapping on the fans.  They are examples of exactly how, and when, NH lost his way.  Players like Church have no business ever being on this team.  Keeping him on this team would be a travesty.
Any roster time after the first day of Steve Pearce being healthy is too long for Church. Keeping Church around is a Dave Littlefield-like move. Church blocking ANY young player from at bats goes against what NH and FC have been preaching. There IS no accountability with the Pirates, unless you are a rookie. Management shows it every day. Ryan Church starts next season on the Pirates roster...that's a sign of the Pirates front office making plans to have a celebration during the 2017 season of the 25th anniversary of the last Pirates winning team. Because it means that the current FO hasn't learned from the past 2 FO's and are making the same mistakes. Which will either doom us to more losing seasons...or a new front office and another rebuilding program.
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GoBucs21
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 10:38:19 AM »

I think this is more evidence that Huntington relies on stats to the point of it being a fault.  He probably looks at Church's career numbers and is totally confident that he will eventually bounce back to those numbers(.800+ OPS vs righties). 
I don't.  There is no way one could use stats from this year and begin to make any case at all for Ryan Church.

Any discussion of Ryan Church beyond this week, let alone next year, is a slap in the face of Pirate fans.  Ryan Church and Iwamura are just the most recent examples of crapping on the fans.  They are examples of exactly how, and when, NH lost his way.  Players like Church have no business ever being on this team.  Keeping him on this team would be a travesty.
Any roster time after the first day of Steve Pearce being healthy is too long for Church. Keeping Church around is a Dave Littlefield-like move. Church blocking ANY young player from at bats goes against what NH and FC have been preaching. There IS no accountability with the Pirates, unless you are a rookie. Management shows it every day. Ryan Church starts next season on the Pirates roster...that's a sign of the Pirates front office making plans to have a celebration during the 2017 season of the 25th anniversary of the last Pirates winning team. Because it means that the current FO hasn't learned from the past 2 FO's and are making the same mistakes. Which will either doom us to more losing seasons...or a new front office and another rebuilding program.
I don't care if Church is blocking a cold body from CSI, he shouldn't be here.  Church is addition by subtraction being here is blocking that improvement.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 10:45:52 AM »

so who is the young player that should be playing in RF?  Pearce is no youngster and he won't be available for weeks yet.  Milledge isn't really either based on the amount of ML experience he has.  There is no one in the minors that currently fits the bill unless you can possibly think that Presley is going to be the next bucco rookie in the OF.  Maybe you'd like to see LaRoche move out there.  Quite frankly, this platoon between Milledge and Church has been the most effective thing they have had going out there in right with the exception of Jones, but then who plays first base.  The fact it there isn't really anyone better in the system right now.  The pirates have to make some sort of acquisition to play one of those two positions before things change, and that probably won't happen until the offseason unless someone wants to overpay for one of the bucs pitchers at the deadline.  Bottom line is don't worry about church being around next season until then and learn to live with the platoon because it isn't going away any time soon.
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Thunder
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 10:59:24 AM »

so who is the young player that should be playing in RF?  Pearce is no youngster and he won't be available for weeks yet.  Milledge isn't really either based on the amount of ML experience he has.  There is no one in the minors that currently fits the bill unless you can possibly think that Presley is going to be the next bucco rookie in the OF.  Maybe you'd like to see LaRoche move out there.  Quite frankly, this platoon between Milledge and Church has been the most effective thing they have had going out there in right with the exception of Jones, but then who plays first base.  The fact it there isn't really anyone better in the system right now.  The pirates have to make some sort of acquisition to play one of those two positions before things change, and that probably won't happen until the offseason unless someone wants to overpay for one of the bucs pitchers at the deadline.  Bottom line is don't worry about church being around next season until then and learn to live with the platoon because it isn't going away any time soon.
Church?? Effective?? What games have you been watching?? He's had 9 hits since Memorial Day, and 3 of those were in one game. Even WITH the 3 hit game...since May 23, he's hitting .137 with a .435 OPS. And that's with him working the favored half of the platoon. Please step away from whatever you are smoking or drinking.
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A. Senter
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 12:11:06 PM »

so who is the young player that should be playing in RF?  Pearce is no youngster and he won't be available for weeks yet.  Milledge isn't really either based on the amount of ML experience he has.  There is no one in the minors that currently fits the bill unless you can possibly think that Presley is going to be the next bucco rookie in the OF.  Maybe you'd like to see LaRoche move out there.  Quite frankly, this platoon between Milledge and Church has been the most effective thing they have had going out there in right with the exception of Jones, but then who plays first base.  The fact it there isn't really anyone better in the system right now.  The pirates have to make some sort of acquisition to play one of those two positions before things change, and that probably won't happen until the offseason unless someone wants to overpay for one of the bucs pitchers at the deadline.  Bottom line is don't worry about church being around next season until then and learn to live with the platoon because it isn't going away any time soon.

Wow.  I gotta tell you Scrap, there are times that I wonder if your posts are purposely meant to just stir things up.  This is one of those times.
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WTM
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 12:26:01 PM »

I've come to the conclusion that one problem the Pirates are facing is a FO that prioritizes managing assets over winning.  Not many teams would put up with Church's performance.  He's at the age where merely decent hitters often fall off a cliff, so it's not like you can keep pointing to his career BA (which isn't exactly fabulous anyway) as if he's guaranteed to return to that level.  The long-term potential, if any, that Church offers to this team doesn't remotely offset the horrible short-term performance.  Yet we keep hearing that "we have to get him going."

NH is obviously hung up on the fact that the Pirates control Church for one more year.  That's what this platoon farce boils down to--NH is trying to protect the value of that one year of control.  I'm all for the FO taking an analytical approach, but they've lost sight of the forest because of the trees.  The cost of "wasting" that one year of an asset--one that may provide no value at all anyway--isn't worth the costs on the field and the opportunity costs of not playing somebody who offers more potential, whether it's Milledge or some younger 4th OF type.  EVEN IF, GOD FORBID, CHURCH IS STILL AROUND NEXT YEAR, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE WORTHWHILE OPTIONS FOR THAT ROSTER SPOT.  Pearce and Clement will both be out of options, Alex Presley may earn a shot.  And NH will no doubt be out there over the offseason looking for another Garrett Jones type.  A competent GM should have little trouble finding somebody worth giving a chance to.

But this is a problem in other contexts, too.  NH generally has been way too reluctant to give up on his acquisitions, and too reluctant to make roster moves, as if the 40-man wasn't loaded with guys who wouldn't be missed.  The same attitude infects Russell, too.  He manages the pitching staff as if keeping the bullpen at optimum freshness was more important than winning games.  And he routinely benches players just when they start hitting so he can get somebody else out there.  Everybody in management on this team seems to be obsessed with process.  They're all working toward some mythical time when everything falls into place and they can start focusing on the team on the field.  They're so caught up in the process of managing assets that they can't even focus on the long-term potential of living, breathing players like Milledge.  Abstract notions like the value of an utterly worthless asset, such as Church's last year of control, are more important to them.
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Thunder
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 12:41:44 PM »

I've come to the conclusion that one problem the Pirates are facing is a FO that prioritizes managing assets over winning.  Not many teams would put up with Church's performance.  He's at the age where merely decent hitters often fall off a cliff, so it's not like you can keep pointing to his career BA (which isn't exactly fabulous anyway) as if he's guaranteed to return to that level.  The long-term potential, if any, that Church offers to this team doesn't remotely offset the horrible short-term performance.  Yet we keep hearing that "we have to get him going."

NH is obviously hung up on the fact that the Pirates control Church for one more year.  That's what this platoon farce boils down to--NH is trying to protect the value of that one year of control.  I'm all for the FO taking an analytical approach, but they've lost sight of the forest because of the trees.  The cost of "wasting" that one year of an asset--one that may provide no value at all anyway--isn't worth the costs on the field and the opportunity costs of not playing somebody who offers more potential, whether it's Milledge or some younger 4th OF type.  EVEN IF, GOD FORBID, CHURCH IS STILL AROUND NEXT YEAR, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE WORTHWHILE OPTIONS FOR THAT ROSTER SPOT.  Pearce and Clement will both be out of options, Alex Presley may earn a shot.  And NH will no doubt be out there over the offseason looking for another Garrett Jones type.  A competent GM should have little trouble finding somebody worth giving a chance to.

But this is a problem in other contexts, too.  NH generally has been way too reluctant to give up on his acquisitions, and too reluctant to make roster moves, as if the 40-man wasn't loaded with guys who wouldn't be missed.  The same attitude infects Russell, too.  He manages the pitching staff as if keeping the bullpen at optimum freshness was more important than winning games.  And he routinely benches players just when they start hitting so he can get somebody else out there.  Everybody in management on this team seems to be obsessed with process.  They're all working toward some mythical time when everything falls into place and they can start focusing on the team on the field.  They're so caught up in the process of managing assets that they can't even focus on the long-term potential of living, breathing players like Milledge.  Abstract notions like the value of an utterly worthless asset, such as Church's last year of control, are more important to them.
You've got it right, Wilbur. Control of assets is much more important to them than putting out a quality product. If the Pirates were a manufacturer, they'd be out of business.
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MaineBucs
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2010, 01:02:46 PM »

This past off-season, I thought signing Church to a 1 year deal to be the team's 4th outfielder was a reasonable move for NH to make.  I looked at his past statistics and ability to play all outfield positions and thought that he would be a reasonably priced option for an outfield reserve.

Unfortunately, I have now had the opportunity to watch Church play for the Pirates, and to now assume the role of a platoon regular.  I am disappointed to hear NH speak about Church having a role for the remainder of this year and potentially next year too.  I remain skeptical that Milledge is the answer in right, but I sure would prefer to give him more at-bats to see if he can regain his past status as a potential everyday major leaguer.

It is also very disheartening to take a quick look at the current standings and to realize that even if the Pirates miraculously pulled off a 10 game winning streak, that with the possible exception of the D-Backs, the Pirates still wouild possess the worst record in the NL.  In short, just as the team has commited to playing Walker, Tabata, Alvarez and McCutchen in all situations, the team needs to take a similar plunge with Milledge and Cedeno and to see if either offers much (any) value for next year. 
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GoBucs21
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2010, 01:12:00 PM »

so who is the young player that should be playing in RF?  Pearce is no youngster and he won't be available for weeks yet.  Milledge isn't really either based on the amount of ML experience he has.  There is no one in the minors that currently fits the bill unless you can possibly think that Presley is going to be the next bucco rookie in the OF.  Maybe you'd like to see LaRoche move out there.  Quite frankly, this platoon between Milledge and Church has been the most effective thing they have had going out there in right with the exception of Jones, but then who plays first base.  The fact it there isn't really anyone better in the system right now.  The pirates have to make some sort of acquisition to play one of those two positions before things change, and that probably won't happen until the offseason unless someone wants to overpay for one of the bucs pitchers at the deadline.  Bottom line is don't worry about church being around next season until then and learn to live with the platoon because it isn't going away any time soon.
Are you serious?  Have you looked at Church's splits?  He is hitting .194 against righties.  His Slugging against righties is .331.  His OPS against right handers is a putrid .584.  There is nothing remotely good about it, not even by comparison.  Hitting righties is what Church is supposed to be good at.

Milledge is hitting .255 and has an OPS of .624 against righties.  That's awful but a lot better than what Church is doing.  Milledge is the one you should be making the case for being better than anything else we have, not Church.

I challenge you to go to one stat from this season to justify playing Church over Milledge.  Find it and report back using it as supporting your thesis for Church.

If you don't see that Church is currently blocking Milledge, you aren't looking.

I have no problems with platoons, when they are the right thing to do.  Playing Church over Milledge or even Pearce isn't an effective use of a platoon.

There is no reason, none, for playing Church other than an occasional pinch hit.
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People say I am ruthless. I am not ruthless. And if I find the man who is calling me ruthless, I shall destroy him.
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Moral courage is a more rare commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence.
Robert F. Kennedy
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