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Author Topic: Draft update  (Read 41642 times)
WTM
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« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2010, 11:04:17 AM »

Right. Honestly, I don't understand why some people can't accept Olney's column at face value. Why is it so beyond the pale to hear that some scouts see flaws in his game and are concerned about drafting him? I was joking earlier on this thread that apparently any criticism of St Harper is too much criticism. Forty comments later, and I'm thinking some people seem to actually feel that way.

There's a certain lack of perspective and an inability to recognize context that's at play here.  With Harper, scouts aren't just evaluating a draft prospect.  They're evaluating a potential #1 overall who's going to want possibly the biggest bonus ever and certainly by far the biggest ever paid to a non-4-yr-college guy.  It's easy for us posting on a message board to say, Pick the best player and sign him no matter what it takes.  We're not going to face any accountability if things go badly.

It's especially important to consider the difference between Harper and Strasburg.  If you actually read the comments from scouts and GMs about the two, instead of being totally focused on money-motivated conspiracy theories, it's painfully obvious why they see a big difference between them.  Strasburg was universally viewed as a guy who could step right off the campus and into a major league ballpark and get hitters out.  He didn't/doesn't need any development, according to everybody who's had anything to say about him.  The Nats are only going to send him to the minors so they can get an extra four months out of him before Scott Borass whisks him away to Yankee Stadium.

Harper is just 17.  No matter how good he is, he's going to need 2-3 years in the minors.  The fact that he needs some development means there are risks that Strasburg doesn't present.  That's why scouts are looking at risk factors like his size and his tendency to swing and miss a lot.  (Anybody who thinks these are non-issues just doesn't know much about evaluating prospects.  Both statheads and traditional scouts will tell you otherwise.)  It's not that they think he sucks.  I haven't even seen anything where a scout is saying he's not the top guy, only that he's not clearly the top guy the way Strasburg was.  They're looking at what could possibly go wrong in view of the fact that he's going to want a historically significant deal to sign.  Any scout who didn't report back on these factors should be fired.  It's not the scouts' job to write gushing, hyperbole-filled stories for SI.  It's their job to provide all relevant information to their teams.
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« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2010, 11:29:32 AM »

I think what disturbs me about some of the criticism is that a lot of it appears to be an attempt to lay the groundwork for the eventual excuses when a few teams pass on him.  I don't know if that will happen or not, but we've heard this type of tortured logic before when a team passes on a player for a reason they don't want to divulge(eg don't want to spend the money).

Tries too hard, too big, 25% K ratio are absurd reasons for criticizing this kid when you consider the type of player he projects to be.

Wait a minute -- you think Buster Olney and some unnamed scouts are laying the groundwork for teams to pass on drafting Harper...and have the audacity to accuse other people of tortured logic?

Obviously, Buster Olney and scouts for other teams are Nutting shills.  I am surprised you did not know that.

Right. Honestly, I don't understand why some people can't accept Olney's column at face value. Why is it so beyond the pale to hear that some scouts see flaws in his game and are concerned about drafting him? I was joking earlier on this thread that apparently any criticism of St Harper is too much criticism. Forty comments later, and I'm thinking some people seem to actually feel that way.

I don't think that Olney is being mentioned as part of a conspiracy...it just seems as though some on this board have a preconceived notion about a topic and then hang onto any blurb they hear that supports it as opposed to maybe...just maybe...seeing that they could have been wrong.

Had Harper been playing like the second coming of Joe Garagiola I would have been the first to state emphatically that he should in no way be drafted at #2 by the Bucs. But now that he is putting up some very gaudy numbers...again as a 17 year old against college kids with a wood bat...I do expect people to say that perhaps they were wrong and that maybe...just maybe...the Pirates should look into drafting this guy if available with the second pick in the draft. Buster Olney notwithstanding.

RJR
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« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2010, 11:38:14 AM »


I don't think that Olney is being mentioned as part of a conspiracy...it just seems as though some on this board have a preconceived notion about a topic and then hang onto any blurb they hear that supports it as opposed to maybe...just maybe...seeing that they could have been wrong.

Had Harper been playing like the second coming of Joe Garagiola I would have been the first to state emphatically that he should in no way be drafted at #2 by the Bucs. But now that he is putting up some very gaudy numbers...again as a 17 year old against college kids with a wood bat...I do expect people to say that perhaps they were wrong and that maybe...just maybe...the Pirates should look into drafting this guy if available with the second pick in the draft. Buster Olney notwithstanding.

RJR

Agreed.  But then, you must identify that the opposite is also true.  There is just as much of a feeling that some here are of the mind that Harper is the best and using any logic possible to claim it's asinine to believe there's a shred of doubt involved.  That's my whole issue with the factions present here, both for and against drafting Harper.

Too many people have already made up their minds on this issue.  Let's wait and see what happens.
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« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2010, 11:43:18 AM »


I don't think that Olney is being mentioned as part of a conspiracy...it just seems as though some on this board have a preconceived notion about a topic and then hang onto any blurb they hear that supports it as opposed to maybe...just maybe...seeing that they could have been wrong.

Had Harper been playing like the second coming of Joe Garagiola I would have been the first to state emphatically that he should in no way be drafted at #2 by the Bucs. But now that he is putting up some very gaudy numbers...again as a 17 year old against college kids with a wood bat...I do expect people to say that perhaps they were wrong and that maybe...just maybe...the Pirates should look into drafting this guy if available with the second pick in the draft. Buster Olney notwithstanding.

RJR

Agreed.  But then, you must identify that the opposite is also true.  There is just as much of a feeling that some here are of the mind that Harper is the best and using any logic possible to claim it's asinine to believe there's a shred of doubt involved.  That's my whole issue with the factions present here, both for and against drafting Harper.

Too many people have already made up their minds on this issue.  Let's wait and see what happens.

Yeah, agreed. And from what GB is saying it may be a moot point anyway. And of course, once the guy hits the pros all bets are off regarding what I think he WILL accomplish. My only point is about his draft position and whether or not the Pirates would be foolish not to take him if available. It is looking more and more like it would...especially in the light of some of the top college arms dropping a bit. it's not an I told you so, more of a "do you still think the Pirates have a legit reason not to take him if available" question.

RJR
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« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2010, 11:50:43 AM »

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&id=4975668



Monday, March 8, 2010
Four guys who could leadoff in the pros

It's no secret why power hitters are the prizes of the draft, and why table setters aren't typically valued in the same manner. But the relatively recent paradigm shift, which values on-base percentage, may result in a few more of the leadoff-type hitters being selected high.

The class of 2010 boasts college stars that fit that bill:

Gary Brown, Fullerton State: Brown is led by his speed, and is a free swinger; he's yet to draw a single walk all season. Still, his raw speed can't be missed: Brown showed off sub-four-second times to first base this spring.

Tyler Holt, Florida State: Holt is led by his speed as well but, unlike Brown, he's more adept at getting on base and working the count.

Leon Landry, LSU: Landry is a well above-average runner, and offers more power than Holt or Brown, who aim for the gaps and run to daylight from the right side of the batter's box. Landry, a left-handed hitter, brings a sturdy build -- often considered to possess a thick lower half -- and a short, somewhat simple load that pulls him through the strike zone with solid bat speed.

"He's a nice, intriguing talent," said an American League club's area scout of the LSU standout. "He runs, and brings some punch to the plate. I like the way he plays the game, and he might fit at the top of the lineup with his patience and plate skills." Landry's biggest weaknesses include a swing plane that tends to lag and produce too many ground balls, eliminating some of the power potential in his bat, and, as Keith Law wrote last summer, "his pitch recognition still isn't great."

Austin Wates, Virginia Tech: Wates, another right-handed bat, is more like Landry, and considered the best overall prospect among the group. He hit .397/.476/.608 a year ago and impressed scouts on the Cap this past summer. He was No. 2 on Law's Cape Cod League Top 30 Prospects List, and may profile in center field despite playing a lot of first base for the Hokies.

"If you want a bat for the top of your lineup, he might be the best guy for that job," said one scout who caught Wates over the summer for the first time. "He might be able to drive in runs for you, though."

Holt and Brown lack the pop to fit ideally anywhere in the middle of the order. But according to on west coast talent evaluator, they will "fit in the 9-hole if they can't lead off." Brown, due to his lack of on-base skills, likely will be drafted in that light.

They're all legit center field prospects, though, which helps the value of whatever they offer offensively. And despite the differences in what clubs are valuing these days, the bats with the power that will still go earliest in June.

On the Diamond

# Holt reached base three times versus Georgia -- two via walk -- increasing his OBP to .521, one point above where he finished 2009. He's drawn nine walks to just five strikeouts, and has six extra-base hits in 10 games.

# Brown continued his walkless streak, but singled twice and doubled in a loss to Arizona Sunday, raising his season line to .478/.489/.826, including nine extra-base hits and seven steals in as many attempts.

# Wates got the day off Sunday after a double-header Saturday, but Landry went 3-for-4 with two triples to improve to .368/.444/.526 in 11 games. More than one scout has opined that perhaps one of the adjustments Landry has made since the middle of last season is a shorter stroke to generate more consistent contact, which may explain why he hit the ball on the ground a lot last summer and has yet to homer in 45 plate appearances this season after hitting 12 last year.

# Georgia Tech's Derek Dietrich singled and doubled in five trips versus Rutgers Sunday and is now hitting .333/.480/.487, but has just four extra-base hits in 39 official at-bats. The Yellow Jackets closer, Kevin Jacob, allowed four earned runs in his inning, ruining the shutout started by 2011 prospect Jed Bradley, a projectable left-hander with a 27-1 K/BB ratio in 17 frames.

# Ball State's Kolbrin Vitek went 2-for-4 in a loss to Coastal Carolina, and enters the new week with a .395/.438/.791 line that includes four homers and three doubles. The 6-foot-3, 195 pound Vitek doubles as a starting pitcher, but is getting more attention as a bat -- which is easy to justify with a stat line like that.

# Arkansas RHP Brett Eibner walked in his only plate appearance, but fanned five in five strong innings versus California. He allowed four hits and an earned run in the loss, but did not walk a batter and was efficient throughout.

# East Carolina's Devin Harris doubled and hit his first home run of the year Sunday, but has still yet to really get it going this season. He's hitting .294/.385/.500 for the year, but as a 6-foot-4, 221-pound corner outfielder, the right-handed hitter will have to build on the 14 long balls he smacked in 2009 to solidify his place among the first-day candidates.

# Alabama's Josh Rutledge homered twice and now has six extra-base hits in 36 at-bats on the season. The defense-first shortstop has walked just once, but is showing an improved ability to make contact after after striking out 50 times in 2009. "Maybe he just knows who he is now and isn't trying to do too much," offered one scout.

# Notre Dame right-hander Brian Dupra fought through seven strong innings Sunday, allowing seven hits -- all singles -- and an earned run while throwing 83 for 115 pitches for strikes. Dupra is likely a late first or early second-day selection at best, but like many arms could shoot up the charts during the spring.

# Connecticut 3B Mike Olt, a potential Top 100 selection, hit a grand slam Sunday -- his first long ball of the season -- and enters the week batting .400 with two extra base hits in six games. Much like ECU's Harris, Olt must show more consistent power to improve his stock, but as a former shortstop is generally thought to have the athleticism to stay at third, or make a successful move to a corner outfield spot as a pro.

# In Saturday's prep action, Chipley High School (Fla.) right-hander Karsten Whitson fanned 10 in a 2-1 win over Walton HS, giving up just two hits in the process. He did not allow a walk. One scout in attendance told Keith Law that Whitsen was "filthy."

# Maranatha High School (Pasadena, Calif.) right-hander Dylan Covey made his first start of the year Friday night, striking out 12 and allowing one hit and a walk in five innings. Both runs were unearned. An area scout called Covey's outing "impressive" but also said "he's just getting started."
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« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2010, 12:06:08 PM »

I don't think that Olney is being mentioned as part of a conspiracy...it just seems as though some on this board have a preconceived notion about a topic and then hang onto any blurb they hear that supports it as opposed to maybe...just maybe...seeing that they could have been wrong.

Had Harper been playing like the second coming of Joe Garagiola I would have been the first to state emphatically that he should in no way be drafted at #2 by the Bucs. But now that he is putting up some very gaudy numbers...again as a 17 year old against college kids with a wood bat...I do expect people to say that perhaps they were wrong and that maybe...just maybe...the Pirates should look into drafting this guy if available with the second pick in the draft. Buster Olney notwithstanding.

RJR

The only preconceived notion I detect comes from people who see other fans on this board somehow creating cover for management to not draft St Harper. I think it's absurd that you're apparently so irony-deprived to use the phrase "preconceived notion" about the people who don't just dismiss this column out of hand. The level of projection going on here is turned up to 11.

I don't even see how people are "wrong" here. You think St Harper's production so far validates his status as the top pick in the draft. Fine. No argument from me. I can understand that perspective. On the other hand, I can see where somebody else could be troubled by a few flaws in St Harper's game. I might not agree with the concern, or I might think the concern is outweighed by other factors, but that doesn't mean the concern is somehow illegitimate. What I can't understand is the need to dismissively trash anyone who might think twice about drafting St Harper, or the attitude that people should admit they're "wrong" for weighing the opinion of professional scouts. It's beyond absurd, really.
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« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2010, 12:53:23 PM »

I still think there are at least 7-8 names that would be valid choices for our first pick. I'm warm to the thought that Harper may be #1, but like last year (Ackley) there may be 6-7 1A's. If this college season stays on course and the college arms continue to impress, this may be our first oppotunity to draft a potential ace and not break the bank or draft budget to do it. Personally,  I really like Deck McGuire, but I also see there being at least 4-5 college arms that will merit being put in the same discussion.

I am adverse to paying the top 5 pick price on a HS arm, but, along with Taillon, there's at least another 5-6 HS arms that are outstanding too. It's for all these reasons (talent, potential aces and draft budget busting price tags) that Kevin Goldstein mentioned this in his chat last week;

lemppi (Ankeny, IA): Could Bryce Harper fall something like Porcello did? Maybe late teens?

Kevin Goldstein: Or even further.



Paul (DC): Bryce Harper - too much hype too early? talented enough to crack your Top 100 prospect list (if eligible)? are both view points true?

Kevin Goldstein: He'd be a single digit guy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Bryce Harper is the best player in the 2010 draft, but at the same time, Bryce Harper is the most overrated player in the 2010 draft. He is not baseball's LeBron or anything.


I appreciate his candid comments. Everyone is busy trying to find holes in his game and come up with reasons why he won't be the #1 or #2 pick. The bottom line is that right now, Harper is the best player in the draft, but like all the potentially great prospects before him, the cost may not equal the hype. Based on that, there could be 5,10, or 15 teams that think they can still get a top organizational prospect and still have a budget left for the rest of the draft. He's not Pujols and he's not Strasburg. If you think he is, then you should take him and should pay him bank-breaking dollars.

I suggest that if the discussion is going to be about who you want us to draft, you name the player and you name the max price you're willing to pay for them. For me, if it's Harper, I don't pay him a penny more than Pedro (who's also in BP's top 10). If he wants more, I go to Deck McGuire and offer him $4.5- $5M and still have $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft. I like the thought of having a potential ace and still having $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft.
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But as for being a safe pick, I don't think there is such a thing. When someone gets to the big leagues and performs, then I'll say he's a safe pick. Until that happens, there's no such thing. -Bruce Seid- Brewers Director of Scouting
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« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2010, 02:35:49 PM »

I still think there are at least 7-8 names that would be valid choices for our first pick. I'm warm to the thought that Harper may be #1, but like last year (Ackley) there may be 6-7 1A's. If this college season stays on course and the college arms continue to impress, this may be our first oppotunity to draft a potential ace and not break the bank or draft budget to do it. Personally,  I really like Deck McGuire, but I also see there being at least 4-5 college arms that will merit being put in the same discussion.

I am adverse to paying the top 5 pick price on a HS arm, but, along with Taillon, there's at least another 5-6 HS arms that are outstanding too. It's for all these reasons (talent, potential aces and draft budget busting price tags) that Kevin Goldstein mentioned this in his chat last week;

lemppi (Ankeny, IA): Could Bryce Harper fall something like Porcello did? Maybe late teens?

Kevin Goldstein: Or even further.



Paul (DC): Bryce Harper - too much hype too early? talented enough to crack your Top 100 prospect list (if eligible)? are both view points true?

Kevin Goldstein: He'd be a single digit guy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Bryce Harper is the best player in the 2010 draft, but at the same time, Bryce Harper is the most overrated player in the 2010 draft. He is not baseball's LeBron or anything.


I appreciate his candid comments. Everyone is busy trying to find holes in his game and come up with reasons why he won't be the #1 or #2 pick. The bottom line is that right now, Harper is the best player in the draft, but like all the potentially great prospects before him, the cost may not equal the hype. Based on that, there could be 5,10, or 15 teams that think they can still get a top organizational prospect and still have a budget left for the rest of the draft. He's not Pujols and he's not Strasburg. If you think he is, then you should take him and should pay him bank-breaking dollars.

I suggest that if the discussion is going to be about who you want us to draft, you name the player and you name the max price you're willing to pay for them. For me, if it's Harper, I don't pay him a penny more than Pedro (who's also in BP's top 10). If he wants more, I go to Deck McGuire and offer him $4.5- $5M and still have $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft. I like the thought of having a potential ace and still having $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft.

But are we talking about a Roy Oswalt "potential ace" or a Bryan Bullington "potential ace"? What I mean is...are these guys really making such an impact that they could really be considered top of the rotation types? Or are they just the best of what is out there that isn't a very good class for college arms? I hope you are right and that the Pirates do get such a player if Harper isn't available. Do you have some info on some of these guys that could sway my thoughts about their potential?

RR
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« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2010, 02:56:36 PM »

I still like Taillon more than any of the college arms, especially now that Ranaudo is having injury issues.
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WTM
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« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2010, 02:58:56 PM »

No college pitchers, please.
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« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2010, 03:05:35 PM »

I still like Taillon more than any of the college arms, especially now that Ranaudo is having injury issues.

I agree.  Besides the fact that the Pirates passed on Matzek and company last season, is there any "one" reason why everyone believes the Pirates will not take a high school arm at #2.  I know what the history says, I know the Pirates would prefer a college player in round one, but I can't remember NH ever coming out and saying they won't draft a H.S. arm at #2.  If Taillon is the best talent by a considerable margin, I think you take him.  Plus he doesn't have Borass as an advisor.

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« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2010, 03:09:04 PM »

I still like Taillon more than any of the college arms, especially now that Ranaudo is having injury issues.

I agree.  Besides the fact that the Pirates passed on Matzek and company last season, is there any "one" reason why everyone believes the Pirates will not take a high school arm at #2.  I know what the history says, I know the Pirates would prefer a college player in round one, but I can't remember NH ever coming out and saying they won't draft a H.S. arm at #2.  If Taillon is the best talent by a considerable margin, I think you take him.  Plus he doesn't have Borass as an advisor.

Slider

This.


I'm just going under the assumption that them taking a college arm is a foregone conclusion. If they do take Taillon at #2, I would be very happy.

RJR
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Bloop and a Blast
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« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2010, 03:09:26 PM »

I still think there are at least 7-8 names that would be valid choices for our first pick. I'm warm to the thought that Harper may be #1, but like last year (Ackley) there may be 6-7 1A's. If this college season stays on course and the college arms continue to impress, this may be our first oppotunity to draft a potential ace and not break the bank or draft budget to do it. Personally,  I really like Deck McGuire, but I also see there being at least 4-5 college arms that will merit being put in the same discussion.

I am adverse to paying the top 5 pick price on a HS arm, but, along with Taillon, there's at least another 5-6 HS arms that are outstanding too. It's for all these reasons (talent, potential aces and draft budget busting price tags) that Kevin Goldstein mentioned this in his chat last week;

lemppi (Ankeny, IA): Could Bryce Harper fall something like Porcello did? Maybe late teens?

Kevin Goldstein: Or even further.



Paul (DC): Bryce Harper - too much hype too early? talented enough to crack your Top 100 prospect list (if eligible)? are both view points true?

Kevin Goldstein: He'd be a single digit guy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Bryce Harper is the best player in the 2010 draft, but at the same time, Bryce Harper is the most overrated player in the 2010 draft. He is not baseball's LeBron or anything.


I appreciate his candid comments. Everyone is busy trying to find holes in his game and come up with reasons why he won't be the #1 or #2 pick. The bottom line is that right now, Harper is the best player in the draft, but like all the potentially great prospects before him, the cost may not equal the hype. Based on that, there could be 5,10, or 15 teams that think they can still get a top organizational prospect and still have a budget left for the rest of the draft. He's not Pujols and he's not Strasburg. If you think he is, then you should take him and should pay him bank-breaking dollars.

I suggest that if the discussion is going to be about who you want us to draft, you name the player and you name the max price you're willing to pay for them. For me, if it's Harper, I don't pay him a penny more than Pedro (who's also in BP's top 10). If he wants more, I go to Deck McGuire and offer him $4.5- $5M and still have $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft. I like the thought of having a potential ace and still having $4M+ to spend on the rest of the draft.

But are we talking about a Roy Oswalt "potential ace" or a Bryan Bullington "potential ace"? What I mean is...are these guys really making such an impact that they could really be considered top of the rotation types? Or are they just the best of what is out there that isn't a very good class for college arms? I hope you are right and that the Pirates do get such a player if Harper isn't available. Do you have some info on some of these guys that could sway my thoughts about their potential?

RR

I don't know what sites you use or subscribe to, but I get a good amount of info from the following.

PG Crosschecker
Baseball Intellect
College Baseball Insider
Baseball Rumor Mill
BA's Prospect Plus and BA's audio podcasts
Baseball Draft Report (one of my favorites - detailed and depth)
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But as for being a safe pick, I don't think there is such a thing. When someone gets to the big leagues and performs, then I'll say he's a safe pick. Until that happens, there's no such thing. -Bruce Seid- Brewers Director of Scouting
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« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2010, 03:13:36 PM »

I agree.  Besides the fact that the Pirates passed on Matzek and company last season, is there any "one" reason why everyone believes the Pirates will not take a high school arm at #2.  I know what the history says, I know the Pirates would prefer a college player in round one, but I can't remember NH ever coming out and saying they won't draft a H.S. arm at #2.  If Taillon is the best talent by a considerable margin, I think you take him.  Plus he doesn't have Borass as an advisor.

Slider
Huntington addressed that issue (non-specifically) at Piratefest when asked about the draft last year.  Basically he said that despite the numbers he cited he'd still be willing to take a HS pitcher if he really felt that it was the right player.  He said that last year's draft didn't have a player like a Zach Greinke or a Josh Beckett, but those players do exist and if he sees one he'll take him.  I guess we'll have to see if Taillon really establishes himself as the best player there, then we'll see whether that answer actually matches what he does in practice.
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« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2010, 03:28:08 PM »

I agree.  Besides the fact that the Pirates passed on Matzek and company last season, is there any "one" reason why everyone believes the Pirates will not take a high school arm at #2.  I know what the history says, I know the Pirates would prefer a college player in round one, but I can't remember NH ever coming out and saying they won't draft a H.S. arm at #2.  If Taillon is the best talent by a considerable margin, I think you take him.  Plus he doesn't have Borass as an advisor.

Slider
Huntington addressed that issue (non-specifically) at Piratefest when asked about the draft last year.  Basically he said that despite the numbers he cited he'd still be willing to take a HS pitcher if he really felt that it was the right player.  He said that last year's draft didn't have a player like a Zach Greinke or a Josh Beckett, but those players do exist and if he sees one he'll take him.  I guess we'll have to see if Taillon really establishes himself as the best player there, then we'll see whether that answer actually matches what he does in practice.

I actually am expecting that Taillon goes first in the draft to the Nats, regardless of whatever insider info claims otherwise.
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But as for being a safe pick, I don't think there is such a thing. When someone gets to the big leagues and performs, then I'll say he's a safe pick. Until that happens, there's no such thing. -Bruce Seid- Brewers Director of Scouting
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