P-G Editorial

[Piratesprospects]

Anyway, given all this, I'm not exactly eager to see some new owner start all over again on some new plan before this one runs its course.  That's not the same thing as thinking Nutting is the best of all possible owners, but I'm not impressed with the reasoning of anybody who fails at least to acknowledge the potential downside of a change right now, regardless of who the new owner might be.

I've thought about this, but I've also thought about the alternative.  What if Lemieux/Burkle did nothing?  It seems that they want to buy the team not because they see something wrong with the current approach, but to create a sports network in Pittsburgh (at least according to the rumors).  We assume they'd come in and clean house, replacing Frank and Neal, which would only delay the rebuilding as a new GM gets accustomed to the system.  However, what if they reviewed the system, got some advice from people they trusted, and decided that the current course of action was the right one.  Would people be up in arms over that, just like they are now with Nutting?

[RJReynolds]

In the abstract, there could be countless better owners for the Pirates.  There probably could be better owners for the Yankees, too.  It's a silly question even to ask.

Personally, though, I spent years watching McClatchy and DL trash the franchise.  All the time, I was thinking that, since they were unwilling to get started on the rebuilding program that had to happen for the team to have any hope of success, the day when the team might ever start winning was getting pushed further and further into the future.  I used to argue that every day DL stayed on the job was two more days it would take somebody to straighten out the mess.  Anybody who thinks a new owner, no matter who it is, would step right in, pour jillions of his own bucks into payroll, and start winning immediately is, frankly, a complete idiot.  (I often wonder whether it ever occurs to the peabrains who believe this that, if a random billionaire could do that in Pittsburgh, he could do it anywhere, so why doesn't it happen all the time?)

Anyway, given all this, I'm not exactly eager to see some new owner start all over again on some new plan before this one runs its course.  That's not the same thing as thinking Nutting is the best of all possible owners, but I'm not impressed with the reasoning of anybody who fails at least to acknowledge the potential downside of a change right now, regardless of who the new owner might be.

I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning on the whole WTM. Especially about the DL regime and the harm it did. But the statement that I bolded...this "potential downside" of which you speak...would this downside be worse than 17 straight losing seasons? Could it be worse than having an owner who is incapable of/unwilling to spend the money needed to get the Pirate franchise (draft to IFA's to major league payroll) to a point of competitiveness...let alone maintaining such a position? How much worse could things get in your estimation...other than the chance that it would just be "more of the same"?

DL wasn't the owner. He was totally incapable of making the right choices given the limitations of that ownership group. Just because the GM is better doesn't mean that the current ownership group is any different in terms of dollar commitment to the franchise.

I just fail to see how much worse a new owner could possibly be.

RJR

[WillieBuc]

Dont mean to change the argument, but my thoughts on the editorial are these:

Its crazy to expect a rebuilding plan to be successful in three years.  Part of the reason DL and others never went into a true rebuild is because they knew fans dont have the patience to let a GM go through that process.  So, whether you agree that current management is doing a good job or not, the paper is falling into the classic fan trap of demanding a thorough housecleaning, and then bitching about a thorough housecleaning.  Thats dumb.

Second, the real issue should be whether the current management is doing a good job now that they are quite a bit down the way of their rebuild.  The questions should be framed around the fact that virtually everyone on the major league roster has been dealt, a couple of drafts have been had, IFAs have been signed, etc.  With that context, the question should be did management do a good job to date with all they have done?  Another question should be whether the current players in the majors and minors project to be better than the sorry clubs we have been saddled with for the better part of two decades.

Finally, time frames should be discussed on where the plan is at and where it should be.  Projecting recent draftees is pretty ridiculous, especially the ones that didnt play much or not at all last year.  Yet a lot of the traded for players, and the 08 drafted players, can at least be reviewed to some extent.  Just like its crazy to expect instant results in a rebuild, its just as crazy to say "they have a plan, give them a free pass for five years".  Having a plan and executing well on that plan are two very different things.  The former, pretty much everyone understands.  The latter, is what is open to a lot of fun debate.

[RJReynolds]

Anyway, given all this, I'm not exactly eager to see some new owner start all over again on some new plan before this one runs its course.  That's not the same thing as thinking Nutting is the best of all possible owners, but I'm not impressed with the reasoning of anybody who fails at least to acknowledge the potential downside of a change right now, regardless of who the new owner might be.

I've thought about this, but I've also thought about the alternative.  What if Lemieux/Burkle did nothing?  It seems that they want to buy the team not because they see something wrong with the current approach, but to create a sports network in Pittsburgh (at least according to the rumors).  We assume they'd come in and clean house, replacing Frank and Neal, which would only delay the rebuilding as a new GM gets accustomed to the system.  However, what if they reviewed the system, got some advice from people they trusted, and decided that the current course of action was the right one.  Would people be up in arms over that, just like they are now with Nutting?

Yes. If the continuation of the current course of action included spending the same pittance of money currently being spent. "The plan" as currently constituted isn't the problem. Paying down debt and using accounting gimmicks to skirt the revenue sharing rules while placating fans with "record" amounts spent on the draft...while saving tons of money on major league payroll and not putting that savings into player development in a truly substantial way...that's the problem. If new owners were to do that, they would rightfully incur the wrath of the "groupthink" Pirate fans.

RJR

[RJReynolds]

Dont mean to change the argument, but my thoughts on the editorial are these:

Its crazy to expect a rebuilding plan to be successful in three years.  Part of the reason DL and others never went into a true rebuild is because they knew fans dont have the patience to let a GM go through that process.  So, whether you agree that current management is doing a good job or not, the paper is falling into the classic fan trap of demanding a thorough housecleaning, and then bitching about a thorough housecleaning.  Thats dumb.

Second, the real issue should be whether the current management is doing a good job now that they are quite a bit down the way of their rebuild.  The questions should be framed around the fact that virtually everyone on the major league roster has been dealt, a couple of drafts have been had, IFAs have been signed, etc.  With that context, the question should be did management do a good job to date with all they have done?  Another question should be whether the current players in the majors and minors project to be better than the sorry clubs we have been saddled with for the better part of two decades.

Finally, time frames should be discussed on where the plan is at and where it should be.  Projecting recent draftees is pretty ridiculous, especially the ones that didnt play much or not at all last year.  Yet a lot of the traded for players, and the 08 drafted players, can at least be reviewed to some extent.  Just like its crazy to expect instant results in a rebuild, its just as crazy to say "they have a plan, give them a free pass for five years".  Having a plan and executing well on that plan are two very different things.  The former, pretty much everyone understands.  The latter, is what is open to a lot of fun debate.

The rebuild is definately the way to go. No doubt about that. But where is all of the money saved on payroll these past few years going? They are spending about $4-5 mil per year extra on IFA's and the draft. They have been saving a metric shitton more than that on their major league payroll. Where has it gone? I'm not saying that the Pirates need to spend more on the major league team. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite. Take far more money that has been saved so far, and will be saved this year and next...and instead of spending a measily extra $4-5 mil on drafts/IFA's, spend a bunch more on them. Really infuse talent, instead of kind of spending more just to dsay you are doing it.

The money need not be spent on major league payroll. It should be spent on getting tons of prospects into the fold as quickly as possible. I'm all for spending not much at the major league level at this point. But the revenues need to be accounted for and spent on acquiring young talent...not paying down debt. That's not the way to rebuild.

RJR

[WTM]

But the statement that I bolded...this "potential downside" of which you speak...would this downside be worse than 17 straight losing seasons?

"17 straight losing seasons" makes a nice buzz phrase, but it has nothing to do with the current situation.  The plan they're pursuing started two years ago and Nutting has been running things for only a small fraction of those 17 years.  This is pretty much the default, desperation buzz phrase for FO bashers.  It's just the flip side of "MARIO WILL SAVE US BECAUSE HE'S SUPER MARIO!!!"

Could it be worse than having an owner who is incapable of/unwilling to spend the money needed to get the Pirate franchise (draft to IFA's to major league payroll) to a point of competitiveness...let alone maintaining such a position?

You talk like these are proven facts, as if the Pirates hadn't outspent all 29 other teams on draft bonuses the last two years and weren't in the upper third in international bonuses.  This argument has been getting rehashed and respun for two years.  I'm not going to start agreeing just because somebody repeats the same reality-denying argument for the eleventy billionth time.

[WTM]

Dont mean to change the argument, but my thoughts on the editorial are these:

Its crazy to expect a rebuilding plan to be successful in three years.  Part of the reason DL and others never went into a true rebuild is because they knew fans dont have the patience to let a GM go through that process.  So, whether you agree that current management is doing a good job or not, the paper is falling into the classic fan trap of demanding a thorough housecleaning, and then bitching about a thorough housecleaning.  Thats dumb.

Second, the real issue should be whether the current management is doing a good job now that they are quite a bit down the way of their rebuild.  The questions should be framed around the fact that virtually everyone on the major league roster has been dealt, a couple of drafts have been had, IFAs have been signed, etc.  With that context, the question should be did management do a good job to date with all they have done?  Another question should be whether the current players in the majors and minors project to be better than the sorry clubs we have been saddled with for the better part of two decades.

Finally, time frames should be discussed on where the plan is at and where it should be.  Projecting recent draftees is pretty ridiculous, especially the ones that didnt play much or not at all last year.  Yet a lot of the traded for players, and the 08 drafted players, can at least be reviewed to some extent.  Just like its crazy to expect instant results in a rebuild, its just as crazy to say "they have a plan, give them a free pass for five years".  Having a plan and executing well on that plan are two very different things.  The former, pretty much everyone understands.  The latter, is what is open to a lot of fun debate.

Changing the argument would be welcome, in my view.  It's nearly impossible to have a discussion about the execution of the plan because stuff like this editorial focuses every last bit of attention on the same issue.  "Nutting is cheap" has to be the topic of every single discussion.  And it's so completely pointless because the guy isn't selling.  If you have concerns that NH is too inexperienced in conducting negotiations, or that they may go overboard with their preference for college position players in the first round, there's no point discussing it because it always ends up being about Nutting.

[RJReynolds]

But the statement that I bolded...this "potential downside" of which you speak...would this downside be worse than 17 straight losing seasons?

"17 straight losing seasons" makes a nice buzz phrase, but it has nothing to do with the current situation.  The plan they're pursuing started two years ago and Nutting has been running things for only a small fraction of those 17 years.  This is pretty much the default, desperation buzz phrase for FO bashers.  It's just the flip side of "MARIO WILL SAVE US BECAUSE HE'S SUPER MARIO!!!"

Could it be worse than having an owner who is incapable of/unwilling to spend the money needed to get the Pirate franchise (draft to IFA's to major league payroll) to a point of competitiveness...let alone maintaining such a position?

You talk like these are proven facts, as if the Pirates hadn't outspent all 29 other teams on draft bonuses the last two years and weren't in the upper third in international bonuses.  This argument has been getting rehashed and respun for two years.  I'm not going to start agreeing just because somebody repeats the same reality-denying argument for the eleventy billionth time.

Spend an extra $4-5 mil on the draft/IFA's....save $20 mil on major league payroll...pay down debt with the difference....make gullible Pirate fans believe I really care about winning by spending just that extra $4-5 mil...never once spend a penny more than my predecessors but continue to talk about some nebulous time in the future when I will spend the money....a time that has a fairly good chance of not happening because "the plan" would have to be worked to near perfection while I continue to not fund the total rebuild to the best of my abilities...

Bob Nutting has the easiest job in sports history. I'm convinced.

RJR

[WTM]

[A. Senter]

Why do people insist on creating straw men to argue against instead of addressing the actual topic?

Those are some cool looking dinosaurs.  I especially like the picture on the left, where the tan dinosaur has his left leg up in the air.  Cool drawings.

[charlie]

Spend an extra $4-5 mil on the draft/IFA's....save $20 mil on major league payroll...pay down debt with the difference....make gullible Pirate fans believe I really care about winning by spending just that extra $4-5 mil...never once spend a penny more than my predecessors but continue to talk about some nebulous time in the future when I will spend the money....a time that has a fairly good chance of not happening because "the plan" would have to be worked to near perfection while I continue to not fund the total rebuild to the best of my abilities...

Bob Nutting has the easiest job in sports history. I'm convinced.

You're hardly the first to make this argument, but I still don't understand it. You really think that Nutting's plan is to convince fans he cares about winning by shelling out bonuses on guys like Colton Cain and Robbie Grossman? The casual fans whose patronage Nutting most risks losing couldn't care less about obscure draft picks. The one draft pick they might care about is the first one, and this year's Tony Sanchez pick did little to prove to fans that Nutting is willing to spend. Instead, the Bucs spent a sizeable chunk of change on later-round picks who most fans have probably never heard of. If spending extra on draft picks is PR, as opposed to simply the sort of very good investment that every team in the Pirates' position should make, then it's EXTREMELY strange PR.

[dave3BA]

Dont mean to change the argument, but my thoughts on the editorial are these:

Its crazy to expect a rebuilding plan to be successful in three years.  Part of the reason DL and others never went into a true rebuild is because they knew fans dont have the patience to let a GM go through that process.  So, whether you agree that current management is doing a good job or not, the paper is falling into the classic fan trap of demanding a thorough housecleaning, and then bitching about a thorough housecleaning.  Thats dumb.

Second, the real issue should be whether the current management is doing a good job now that they are quite a bit down the way of their rebuild.  The questions should be framed around the fact that virtually everyone on the major league roster has been dealt, a couple of drafts have been had, IFAs have been signed, etc.  With that context, the question should be did management do a good job to date with all they have done?  Another question should be whether the current players in the majors and minors project to be better than the sorry clubs we have been saddled with for the better part of two decades.

Finally, time frames should be discussed on where the plan is at and where it should be.  Projecting recent draftees is pretty ridiculous, especially the ones that didnt play much or not at all last year.  Yet a lot of the traded for players, and the 08 drafted players, can at least be reviewed to some extent.  Just like its crazy to expect instant results in a rebuild, its just as crazy to say "they have a plan, give them a free pass for five years".  Having a plan and executing well on that plan are two very different things.  The former, pretty much everyone understands.  The latter, is what is open to a lot of fun debate.

What an excellent thought.  Thank you for sharing.  I agree whole-heartedly.

[ECBucs]

I don't get the Pens wanting to buy the Pirates mainly to build a sports network.

If a sports network is the biggest goal, why not see if the Pirates will partner on one?

If Lemiux and Burkle really want the team perhaps they could start out as minority owners (unless Nutting has right of first refusal when shares are available).

[GoBucs21]

If a sports network is the biggest goal, why not see if the Pirates will partner on one?

Because if the Nuttings own the team and Mario owns the network, they are negotiating rights fees with the Nuttings.  If they own the team and the network, they are negotiating with themselves.  Its a lot easier to get a favorable deal for yourself when you are negotiating with yourself.

Also, if you are a hockey team owner and to a lesser degree a baseball team owner, its a great way to hide team revenues on the network's books.

[Dale Berras Stash]

In the abstract, there could be countless better owners for the Pirates.  There probably could be better owners for the Yankees, too.  It's a silly question even to ask.

Personally, though, I spent years watching McClatchy and DL trash the franchise.  All the time, I was thinking that, since they were unwilling to get started on the rebuilding program that had to happen for the team to have any hope of success, the day when the team might ever start winning was getting pushed further and further into the future.  I used to argue that every day DL stayed on the job was two more days it would take somebody to straighten out the mess.  Anybody who thinks a new owner, no matter who it is, would step right in, pour jillions of his own bucks into payroll, and start winning immediately is, frankly, a complete idiot.  (I often wonder whether it ever occurs to the peabrains who believe this that, if a random billionaire could do that in Pittsburgh, he could do it anywhere, so why doesn't it happen all the time?)

Anyway, given all this, I'm not exactly eager to see some new owner start all over again on some new plan before this one runs its course.  That's not the same thing as thinking Nutting is the best of all possible owners, but I'm not impressed with the reasoning of anybody who fails at least to acknowledge the potential downside of a change right now, regardless of who the new owner might be.

Part of the reason for everyone's hopes about a new owner injecting cash stem from two examples:
Mark Cuban with the Dallas Mavericks
Arte Moreno with the Los Angeles Angels...of Anaheim....of California

Both of those guys did exactly that....swoop in and inject their own fortunes to immediately improve the team.

This is the EXCEPTION, not the rule, but it happens.  The hope is that Ron Burkle, he of $3.2 Billion in net worth, will do the same. 

I don't necessarily agree with that idea, but a new deep-pocketed owner could help retain players when they reach free agency and help augment the roster to make them competitive if that situation came about.

And I like to consider myself far from a "peabrain".