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RJReynolds
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 11:02:35 PM » |
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And I think that's all Wilbur is saying, that the kind of groupthink exhibited by the "vast majority" of Pirates fans doesn't necessarily mean they know what's best.
In what bizarro universe is Bob Nutting staying on as Pirates owner "what's best"? I mean...I can see where there are those on this board who want to give the guy a chance...but I would hope that even they would agree that the only way for the Pirates to be competitive with Nutting as owner is for a bunch of things to go just right at the same time. How exactly is this "what's best"? You honestly think there isn't possibly a better owner out there than...Bob Nutting? Yeesh. RJR No one said Nutting is the best possible owner. Why do people insist on creating straw men to argue against instead of addressing the actual topic? Sorry WVB. You must have missed this part of his post. The arguement is that most Pirate fans want someone else as owner of the Pittsburgh Pirate baseball team. The poster said that Pirate fans may not know "what is best". I guess I'm just reading into that by thinking the meaning is that Pirate fans are wrong to want another owner. That "straw man" looks pretty solid to me...sitting there about 8-10 sentances above your response and all... RJR |
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gamecckfn
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 11:08:21 PM » |
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And I think that's all Wilbur is saying, that the kind of groupthink exhibited by the "vast majority" of Pirates fans doesn't necessarily mean they know what's best.
In what bizarro universe is Bob Nutting staying on as Pirates owner "what's best"? I mean...I can see where there are those on this board who want to give the guy a chance...but I would hope that even they would agree that the only way for the Pirates to be competitive with Nutting as owner is for a bunch of things to go just right at the same time. How exactly is this "what's best"? You honestly think there isn't possibly a better owner out there than...Bob Nutting? Yeesh. RJR No one said Nutting is the best possible owner. Why do people insist on creating straw men to argue against instead of addressing the actual topic? Sorry WVB. You must have missed this part of his post. The arguement is that most Pirate fans want someone else as owner of the Pittsburgh Pirate baseball team. The poster said that Pirate fans may not know "what is best". I guess I'm just reading into that by thinking the meaning is that Pirate fans are wrong to want another owner. That "straw man" looks pretty solid to me...sitting there about 8-10 sentances above your response and all... RJR So like WV said, you are creating an arguement that was not there. no one said Nutting is the best, yet you want to argue it. The point is that selling would not change anything. It is highly unlikely anyone in the front office today would be fired if the team was sold tomorrow. Also, if the owners of the Penguins bought the team a year ago, it is highly likely they would have supported the moves NH has made, since the Penguins did the exact same thing. |
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WTM
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 11:12:48 PM » |
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Why do people insist on creating straw men to argue against instead of addressing the actual topic?
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"Bad things happen when you make mistakes."
-- Tom Gorzelanny
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Rutang
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 11:21:42 PM » |
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Come on, WTM. Your comic is the real straw man fallacy here. Let's be serious.  |
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WTM
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 11:22:48 PM » |
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A change in ownership might change things and it might not. Burkle and Lemieux might hire a new GM who turned out to be the next John Schuerholz (sp?). Or they might hire one who made DL look like Schuerholz. Or they might be fundamentally unable to understand the realities of a baseball farm system.
But it won't result in a significant increase in payroll. Everything about the Pens' history, and about the way MLB franchises are run, shows that. There isn't the teeniest, tiniest scrap of evidence that Burkle would pump money into the franchise. It's a fantasy.
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"Bad things happen when you make mistakes."
-- Tom Gorzelanny
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 11:38:25 PM » |
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Why do people insist on creating straw men to argue against instead of addressing the actual topic?
So then...let me get this straight WTM. Just...you know...to be clear. Dogknot posted that Pirate fans and their "groupthink" don't always know what is best. This statement within a thread discussing how the Pirate fan "groupthink" currently revolves around Bob Nutting not being owner anymore. Yet I am the one who is creating a "straw man" argument. When Dogknot himself is arguing that Nutting staying on as owner is what is best for this team.  RJR |
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Rutang
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 11:52:04 PM » |
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So then...let me get this straight WTM. Just...you know...to be clear.
Dogknot posted that Pirate fans and their "groupthink" don't always know what is best. This statement within a thread discussing how the Pirate fan "groupthink" currently revolves around Bob Nutting not being owner anymore.
Yet I am the one who is creating a "straw man" argument.
When Dogknot himself is arguing that Nutting staying on as owner is what is best for this team.
RJR
Reading Comprehension fail. It doesn't make the fans right, but I agree that more people want Nutting to sell than stay on as the Pirates' Owner.
He's saying that just because everyone thinks it, its not neccessarily right. The thread has been about the PG pandering to the fans to sell papers by posting an "editorial" that just states the popular opinion. |
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 12:03:09 AM » |
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So then...let me get this straight WTM. Just...you know...to be clear.
Dogknot posted that Pirate fans and their "groupthink" don't always know what is best. This statement within a thread discussing how the Pirate fan "groupthink" currently revolves around Bob Nutting not being owner anymore.
Yet I am the one who is creating a "straw man" argument.
When Dogknot himself is arguing that Nutting staying on as owner is what is best for this team.
RJR
Reading Comprehension fail. It doesn't make the fans right, but I agree that more people want Nutting to sell than stay on as the Pirates' Owner.
He's saying that just because everyone thinks it, its not neccessarily right. The thread has been about the PG pandering to the fans to sell papers by posting an "editorial" that just states the popular opinion. I agree that the editorial was almost embarrassingly written. And obviously the majority is not always right. But I defy anyone to come up with a valid reason for why Nutting staying is "what's best" for this team....outside of the lame "we don't know if the new owner will be any better" excuse. Arguing that the status quo, which has done such harm to the franchise over the years, has a chance of being maintained with the new owner...when that status quo is assured with the current owner...is rather breathtaking in it's lack of vision. It's like saying "This ball peen hammer just keeps hitting me in the groin (visual euphemism for our lot as Pirates fans). If I move from where I am, there may be a new ball peen hammer to hit me in the groin. Of course, if I stay, I know there will be. Wonder what I should do...". RJR |
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WTM
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 12:04:36 AM » |
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Yet I am the one who is creating a "straw man" argument. Yep. When Dogknot himself is arguing that Nutting staying on as owner is what is best for this team. Nope. Reading Comprehension fail.
Yep. |
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"Bad things happen when you make mistakes."
-- Tom Gorzelanny
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Dogknot3
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 12:05:40 AM » |
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I never said that Nutting staying as the Owner is the best thing for the team?  How did my post even get spun that way? I said, "It doesn't make the fans right, but I agree that more people want Nutting to sell than stay on as the Pirates' Owner." |
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Rutang
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 12:17:24 AM » |
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I agree that the editorial was almost embarrassingly written. And obviously the majority is not always right. But I defy anyone to come up with a valid reason for why Nutting staying is "what's best" for this team....outside of the lame "we don't know if the new owner will be any better" excuse. Arguing that the status quo, which has done such harm to the franchise over the years, has a chance of being maintained with the new owner...when that status quo is assured with the current owner...is rather breathtaking in it's lack of vision. It's like saying "This ball peen hammer just keeps hitting me in the groin (visual euphemism for our lot as Pirates fans). If I move from where I am, there may be a new ball peen hammer to hit me in the groin. Of course, if I stay, I know there will be. Wonder what I should do...".
RJR
No one is saying that, though. No one is saying that Nutting is the best owner for the team. You are making that up. |
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 12:19:42 AM » |
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And I think that's all Wilbur is saying, that the kind of groupthink exhibited by the "vast majority" of Pirates fans doesn't necessarily mean they know what's best.
My bad dogknot. It was Will who farted out this little nugget of genius. Again. Discussion topic: Pirate fans groupthink that Nutting selling the team would be best for the franchise. Will's quote in this thread...ostensibly on topic: Such groupthinking Pirate fans don't always know what's best. My interpretation (apparently incorrect according to WTM): Will believes the Pirate groupthink in this instance (sell Bob sell) is most likely wrong. RJR |
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gamecckfn
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 12:29:50 AM » |
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How could your interpretation be correct? Can you read minds? Will never said that the Nuttings are the best fit. No one did. Well, except for you.
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WTM
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 12:33:38 AM » |
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In the abstract, there could be countless better owners for the Pirates. There probably could be better owners for the Yankees, too. It's a silly question even to ask.
Personally, though, I spent years watching McClatchy and DL trash the franchise. All the time, I was thinking that, since they were unwilling to get started on the rebuilding program that had to happen for the team to have any hope of success, the day when the team might ever start winning was getting pushed further and further into the future. I used to argue that every day DL stayed on the job was two more days it would take somebody to straighten out the mess. Anybody who thinks a new owner, no matter who it is, would step right in, pour jillions of his own bucks into payroll, and start winning immediately is, frankly, a complete idiot. (I often wonder whether it ever occurs to the peabrains who believe this that, if a random billionaire could do that in Pittsburgh, he could do it anywhere, so why doesn't it happen all the time?)
Anyway, given all this, I'm not exactly eager to see some new owner start all over again on some new plan before this one runs its course. That's not the same thing as thinking Nutting is the best of all possible owners, but I'm not impressed with the reasoning of anybody who fails at least to acknowledge the potential downside of a change right now, regardless of who the new owner might be.
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"Bad things happen when you make mistakes."
-- Tom Gorzelanny
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 12:41:15 AM » |
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How could your interpretation be correct? Can you read minds? Will never said that the Nuttings are the best fit. No one did. Well, except for you.
You are correct that he never said Nutting is the best of all possible owners. That may have been a biy of hyperbole on my part. But he does seem to feel that the groupthink is wrong for wanting Nutting out. Which leads one to believe that Nutting remaining owner is the best scenario going forward. Which would, in my view, simply perpetuate the mind numbing status quo. RJR |
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