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Aaron
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2012, 05:08:19 PM » |
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Okay, throw out that one year. The two previous years his ops+ was 102 and 101. Nothing like last year. That is the type of play you can expect out of CK. More than that is an unexpected bonus. Frankly, he is the type of player that Hague could be if given the opportunity. I, for one, would rather see Hague manning the sack at first than Kotchman.
Okay...throw out Jones one year in 2009. The last two years his ops+ was 107 and 94. Nothing like 2009. That is the type of play you can expect for GJ. I agree I'd rather see Hague given a chance...but it's highly unlikely he ever matches Kotchmans career. |
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Dogknot3
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2012, 11:59:18 PM » |
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Leave both of their best years in there and Jones has had the better career.
Leave both of their best years in there and Jones has had the better career.
Yes, I repeated that on purpose.
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scrapiron
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2012, 08:52:59 AM » |
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Okay, throw out that one year. The two previous years his ops+ was 102 and 101. Nothing like last year. That is the type of play you can expect out of CK. More than that is an unexpected bonus. Frankly, he is the type of player that Hague could be if given the opportunity. I, for one, would rather see Hague manning the sack at first than Kotchman.
Okay...throw out Jones one year in 2009. The last two years his ops+ was 107 and 94. Nothing like 2009. That is the type of play you can expect for GJ. I agree I'd rather see Hague given a chance...but it's highly unlikely he ever matches Kotchmans career. Not that I was making any kind of argument for Jones, but that is exactly why he needs a platoon partner. As for it being 'highly unlikely' that Hague could match Kotchman's career, why not? Kotchman is pedestrian at best. Hague has hit for good average in the minors and has just as much if not more power than Casey. Maybe he won't be able to hit major league pitching, but I'd say it's a 50/50 proposition at worst that he can't match what CK has done. |
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There's something kind of eeEEEEeeehh about a kid that's never played baseball. --Foghorn Leghorn
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gamecckfn
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 10:49:16 AM » |
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I'd prefer Jones/Evans as the platoon.
And if the expected range for Jones' OPS against righties is to use his 3 major league season, try that for Kotchman. Without looking it up I'd be pretty sure he's never had an OPS as high as Jones' best, and hi lowest is likely below Jones' worst.
To me, McGehee is Alvarez insurance, and insurance against the likely scenario of one of the corner IFers being injured for an extended time. He adds depth, just like McLouth does.
I agree with you about Evans and Mcgehee. Evans is going to be the platoon partner. Problem is that Jones hasn't come close to his one above average season 3 years ago. His last 2 years have been extremely pedestrian. Kotchman's last year was definately better than pedestrian. RJR And Kotchman never produced like that in the past. So maybe he found the right steroid combination? Jones was above average last year. |
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gamecckfn
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 10:51:25 AM » |
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Besides, it's not as bad as suggesting the Pirates had Dana Eveland perform poorly on purpose so as to get him through waivers to AAA.
Is it?
RJR
That's not at all what I wrote in that crappy two-year-old post that has nothing to do with steroids which has nothing to do with Casey McGehee who has nothing to do with Brian Tallet. My post my rules. The Pirates are more concerned with finding aging lefties for the end of the bullpen than they are in fielding a major league offense and defense. That is how it has to do with Jesse Orosco. I mean Brian Tallet. Actually Tallet has never been near as effective as Orosco. Just an old lefty. RJR What does signing Tallet have to do with signing a 1B? |
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gamecckfn
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2012, 10:56:07 AM » |
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Okay, throw out that one year. The two previous years his ops+ was 102 and 101. Nothing like last year. That is the type of play you can expect out of CK. More than that is an unexpected bonus. Frankly, he is the type of player that Hague could be if given the opportunity. I, for one, would rather see Hague manning the sack at first than Kotchman.
Okay...throw out Jones one year in 2009. The last two years his ops+ was 107 and 94. Nothing like 2009. That is the type of play you can expect for GJ. I agree I'd rather see Hague given a chance...but it's highly unlikely he ever matches Kotchmans career. So what would be the point of signing Kotchman? His defense is not that good that he would make a noticeable difference. |
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PMike
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2012, 12:45:13 PM » |
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This seemed to be a bit more rhan regular lasik surgery though. Not familiar with the procedure but this involved pus draining from both eyes. Sounds nasty.
And to the points of WTM and Mike...I am not particularly enamored with Kotchman. Probably a moderate upgrade at first base offensively and a pretty big one on defense ( which I am less concerned about). But what chafes my heinie is that we can never look forward to even such things as a moderate upgrade with a youngish offensive player in this organization anymore. All we have to look forward to are aging declining garbage like Barmes and end of the bullpen reclamation projects. It just frustrates the heck out of me that we can't even get a reasonably priced younger player at a position of some need who plays good defense and OPS+'d 128 last year...but instead we get to hear about the next in a long line of bottom feeding that we continue to do year in and year out because our internal options are (again) inadequate.
It is just frustration guys. Bear with me. I think I care too much. Need to find a hobby. Like somebody said...box a kangaroo or something.
Which reminds me...hey Omar...I just sold my 1910 Notebook Covers Wags.
RJR
I'm with you on the frustration. The Kotchman and McGee stuff is, IMO, rearranging the chairs on the Titanic sort of stuff. I'm starting to seriously lose faith with the NH/FC regime because of their lack of risk. The drafts have been easy decisions to make. Not much money involved. Often picking the best players available. My problem is that they are afraid of risk. By risk, I mean signing McCutchen or someone else to a long term, sizable contract. But more frustratingly for me has been a few of the trades that we seemed to simply be watching. Rizzo, Montero, Alonso, etc. These are the guys that could be difference makers. We have talked about them a lot around here. It was frustrating for me to see these guys all traded to different teams this off season and the Pirates completely unreferenced. I know it would take a lot to get guys like those named and that includes risk. I want to see some risk. |
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2012, 12:52:04 PM » |
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That's it in a nutshell for me PM. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic almost becomes an overused cliche for this organization, yet every year either we go into the year thinking that is what has happened during the off season, or the results testify to that fact. Generally, both. When do we actually start to be able to get excited that we are building towards a sustained period of at least decent teams through management commitment to fund and create such a team? It isn't all going to come internally. When is the mysterious "when the time is right" actually going to happen. If not this year, why not? If not next year, when exactly? Just so very frustrating.
And GCK...they have nothing to do with each other. You win. Or I'm tired of repeating myself. One of the two.
RJR
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ECBucs
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2012, 12:58:58 PM » |
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This seemed to be a bit more rhan regular lasik surgery though. Not familiar with the procedure but this involved pus draining from both eyes. Sounds nasty.
And to the points of WTM and Mike...I am not particularly enamored with Kotchman. Probably a moderate upgrade at first base offensively and a pretty big one on defense ( which I am less concerned about). But what chafes my heinie is that we can never look forward to even such things as a moderate upgrade with a youngish offensive player in this organization anymore. All we have to look forward to are aging declining garbage like Barmes and end of the bullpen reclamation projects. It just frustrates the heck out of me that we can't even get a reasonably priced younger player at a position of some need who plays good defense and OPS+'d 128 last year...but instead we get to hear about the next in a long line of bottom feeding that we continue to do year in and year out because our internal options are (again) inadequate.
It is just frustration guys. Bear with me. I think I care too much. Need to find a hobby. Like somebody said...box a kangaroo or something.
Which reminds me...hey Omar...I just sold my 1910 Notebook Covers Wags.
RJR
I'm with you on the frustration. The Kotchman and McGee stuff is, IMO, rearranging the chairs on the Titanic sort of stuff. I'm starting to seriously lose faith with the NH/FC regime because of their lack of risk. The drafts have been easy decisions to make. Not much money involved. Often picking the best players available. My problem is that they are afraid of risk. By risk, I mean signing McCutchen or someone else to a long term, sizable contract. But more frustratingly for me has been a few of the trades that we seemed to simply be watching. Rizzo, Montero, Alonso, etc. These are the guys that could be difference makers. We have talked about them a lot around here. It was frustrating for me to see these guys all traded to different teams this off season and the Pirates completely unreferenced. I know it would take a lot to get guys like those named and that includes risk. I want to see some risk. I basically agree with this but FC and NH would say the Bucs do take risks (they are just smaller) like with Overbay, Barajas, Barmes and Bedard. Risks that usually are low on odds for good performance (Bedard is exception). |
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bobster
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2012, 02:35:18 PM » |
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When is the mysterious "when the time is right" actually going to happen. If not this year, why not? If not next year, when exactly? Just so very frustrating. That's how I feel too. I was at the Pirates fantasy camp 2 weeks ago and listening to a former player still associated with the organization (I'd rather not name him because he was talking in confidence). He was defending the org for not making significant moves saying it makes no sense now because one or two big moves are not going to make much difference with this team right now. But I diasagree. If not now, when? They have a good young OF but could really use a big HR/RBI guy in RF. They have Walker, Cutch, and hopefully Alvarez. If not, maybe McGehee can be productive at 3B. But they need an impact hitter at 1B. They have a good bullpen and adequate starters (hopefully). Seems to me that if they substantially upgraded at 1B and RF (or added one top pitcher), they could be competitive in their division. But the company line is always that they aren't ready, so why spend any money on the ML roster? It seems to be a convenient excuse for not spending. A few years ago, they were waiting for Cutch, Tabata, Alvarez and the pitchers to develop. OK, they're here now. A couple additions of good ML players could make a big difference IMO. Instead, we get the same mantra, "We can't compete yet, so we'll save our money for later." For what? For a new draft pick when they decide not to pay Cutch? Very frustrating. I try to look at it objectively and not just repeat the "Nutting is cheap" line. But actions speak louder than words and it does seem to me that they make excuses for not spending instead of supplementing the homegrown talent they've been telling us to wait for. That talent is largely here already. But the org has not changed it's stance on spending. |
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markson33
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2012, 02:44:53 PM » |
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| When is the mysterious "when the time is right" actually going to happen. If not this year, why not? If not next year, when exactly? Just so very frustrating. |
I guess that has been my argument, that now is not the right time. By the end of the 2013 season the team should have a much stronger "nucleus" and the front office should have a much better idea of what is needed to fill holes. Cole Taillon Sanchez Marte Grossman McFear Locke Owens Curry Lincoln Over the next year we should know if a lot of these players are going to be parts moving forward or not. At that point it makes sense to use your trade chips. Don't use them now when you don't know what your needs are going to be. Why trade for players now, if there is a possibility you may be able to fill that void internally within the next two years. |
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2012, 02:58:15 PM » |
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But markson, the problem is that we have been told that the time may just be when Pedro and Tabata and Cutch are all here together. Now that's not the right timw but rather it will be when Cole and Taillon are here pitching like aces together. What happens at that time when we are still not quite ready yet? The vicious cycle has not ended for 20 years now. Why should we buy into the idea that the time to spend is ever going to arrive to ownership's satisfaction?
RJR
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SammyKhalifa
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2012, 03:01:37 PM » |
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But markson, the problem is that we have been told that the time may just be when Pedro and Tabata and Cutch are all here together. Now that's not the right timw but rather it will be when Cole and Taillon are here pitching like aces together. What happens at that time when we are still not quite ready yet? The vicious cycle has not ended for 20 years now. Why should we buy into the idea that the time to spend is ever going to arrive to ownership's satisfaction?
RJR
You might very well be right about that; but one way or the other it doesn't have much to do with Brian Tallet, the likes of which are signed by every major league team every year. |
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RJReynolds
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2012, 03:28:15 PM » |
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But markson, the problem is that we have been told that the time may just be when Pedro and Tabata and Cutch are all here together. Now that's not the right timw but rather it will be when Cole and Taillon are here pitching like aces together. What happens at that time when we are still not quite ready yet? The vicious cycle has not ended for 20 years now. Why should we buy into the idea that the time to spend is ever going to arrive to ownership's satisfaction?
RJR
You might very well be right about that; but one way or the other it doesn't have much to do with Brian Tallet, the likes of which are signed by every major league team every year. You are absolutely correct my Egyptian friend. What it does have to do with is an almost total failure at the scouting and development and player evaluation levels to get enough talent in place so as to not need to sign chud like Tallet (and 5-10 others like him) every off season. It has been 5 years now. It doesn't seem like that much to ask for. RJR |
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markson33
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2012, 03:49:50 PM » |
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Tallet's signing is irrelevant to anything the team is doing. Every team takes flyers on stiffs.
My point with waiting is that I would hate to see them trade Grossman for Rizzo (just hypothetical) and then find out by the end of the season that Curry is a capable 1B and that Marte isn't a capable major league hitter. Etc. Etc. Its just robbing Peter to pay Paul. I don't see how they can make significant trades at this point without trashing their system. Hopefully a little petience will pay off in the next year.
For me, its not about ownerships desire/ability to spend money. The Pirates will never have enough money to compete on that basis.
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