What should the Pirates offer for Fielder?

[CentralCABucsFan]

As Fielder sits out there unsigned, I can't helping thinking about how good of a fit he would be for this team and our ballpartk.  As much as I hate the Brewers, I've always liked Fielder some.  We talk about needing to sign a difference making free agent instead of a bunch of band-aids.  Fielder fits that mold.

So how many years and how much should we pay if we wanted to get an offer out to Fielder?  What do we think he is worth?

I'd offer 8 years at $18-20 million per year.  That brings him to age 35 which is a little risky on our part, but we should be getting his career years as well, and he really has proven to be durable.  I would guess that we already have close to that room in our payroll for this season (if we assume we could easily handle $60 million), and a signing like Fielder should bring more revenues in (maybe allow us to get to the $70-80 million range in future years).  Heck they could even use his contract to justify a slight increase in ticket prices.

I'd still pay for McCutchen, but would be reluctant to spend the money on Alvarez's free agent seasons.  I would continue to develop young pitching and try to refrain from any large contracts for pitchers (starters or closers).  In future years we have to bring up young guys to fill the roles of Barmes, Barajas, etc. to free up salry space.  Next season we could lose Barajas, Bedard, and Correia, and have over $10 million freed up.  The following year we lose Barmes and maybe Hanrahan, and suddenly the Fielder signing isn't as much of a hindrance.

[lost_zero]

In theory, I like the idea of pursuing Fielder.  He's a perfect fit and they can afford him at the numbers you cite. 

But I think Washington can outbid, or at least match, the Pirates in money without breaking a sweat.

The Pirates issues attracting free agents has been well-documented due to their lack of success.  And who has had more of a front-row seat to the Pirates misery than a Brewers player.  I can't imagine he would willingly join such a terrible team.

[scrapiron]

Does anyone really think Fielder will sign for $18-20M a year no matter how long the deal is?  He has been asking for money that exceeds Pujols' deal, he isn't going to accept much less.  I think the thing stopping him from already being signed to that figure is the length of the deal.  Most teams involved don't want to give him $25+M for more than 5 or 6 years.  He will end up signing for his price, I think, but a shorter deal than he wants.  The bucs have absolutely NO shot at signing him.

[bobster]

I've read that Scott Boras is looking for 9-10 years and around 200 million. Also, keep in mind that any team who signs Fielder also has to have money to pay the rest of a good team if it wants to compete.

The premier free agents enjoy the limelight of the postseason and the chance to compete for the championship on the biggest stage. It is rare to see such a player go to a chronic noncontender. Especially since such players usually receive great offers from competitive teams. I cannot imagine Fielder being satisfied to spend the rest of his productive years with a team that has not been competitive for 19 years and cannot assure him that will change even if he is signed. I cannot imagine Fielder even considering an offer from the Pirates unless it is so completely over what Boras is seeking that no one else even comes close to matching it. And that doesn't seem like something the Pirates would do. And I cannot imagine the Pirates investing that money in one player and then still being willing to pony up to retain their best players and add others in order to be a legitimate contender. Seems a lot more like fantasy than reality.

[RJReynolds]

Why should we waste $20 mil per year on a franchise talent when we can waste nearly that much every year on one year rentals and chud like Barmes (chud), Barajas (rental and chud), Correia (chud), Bedard (rental). The Pirates waste millions of dollars every year filling out their roster with rentals. It would be nice to sign a franchise type player and fill those other spots more efficiently. But hey...you can't argue with the great results I guess.

RJR

[lost_zero]

Why should we waste $20 mil per year on a franchise talent when we can waste nearly that much every year on one year rentals and chud like Barmes (chud), Barajas (rental and chud), Correia (chud), Bedard (rental). The Pirates waste millions of dollars every year filling out their roster with rentals. It would be nice to sign a franchise type player and fill those other spots more efficiently. But hey...you can't argue with the great results I guess.

RJR

I think most people have agreed that it would be great to sign him, but sincerely doubt he would be willing to sign with the Pirates for $20M/year.

[RJReynolds]

Why should we waste $20 mil per year on a franchise talent when we can waste nearly that much every year on one year rentals and chud like Barmes (chud), Barajas (rental and chud), Correia (chud), Bedard (rental). The Pirates waste millions of dollars every year filling out their roster with rentals. It would be nice to sign a franchise type player and fill those other spots more efficiently. But hey...you can't argue with the great results I guess.

RJR

I think most people have agreed that it would be great to sign him, but sincerely doubt he would be willing to sign with the Pirates for $20M/year.

$20 million...$24 million...again, we waste more than half that every year on rentals. I think that most are more thinking that the Pirates would never sign someone for that kind of money to begin with so why bother even thinking about it?

Ah, the financial windfall that Pirates ownership reaps year upon year due to the low expectations of the fan base.

RJR

[bobster]

Why should we waste $20 mil per year on a franchise talent when we can waste nearly that much every year on one year rentals and chud like Barmes (chud), Barajas (rental and chud), Correia (chud), Bedard (rental). The Pirates waste millions of dollars every year filling out their roster with rentals. It would be nice to sign a franchise type player and fill those other spots more efficiently. But hey...you can't argue with the great results I guess.

RJR

For one thing, the Pirates are spending that money to fill the 4 roster spots you mentioned as opposed to only one roster spot. The other thing-and the biggest thing-is that it is not the Pirates' option to spend that money on Fielder. It is Fielder's option to take whichever offer he chooses. The Pirates-as a chronic bottom feeder-are simply not attractive to a premier free agent who will no doubt receive substantial offers from other teams who offer something else the Pirates can't match: the chance to be part of a competitive team with a legitimate chance to fight for a championship. As you noted, the Pirates always get the "rentals and chud." Those are the players no contending team wants and who will therefore accept an offer from the Pirates. The Pirates have dug quite a hole for themselves in the last 2 decades. They are going to have to dig themselves out and show they can compete with homegrown talent before a top tier free agent considers tying himself to that franchise for most of the rest of his career.

[CentralCABucsFan]

The question is pretty simple.  What would you offer Fielder if you were in the Pirates shoes?  How high would you go in the situation we are staring at today.

You can whine all day about whether he would accept, or what others are offering, or what else the Pirates should be doing.  The question is what could the Pirates offer and still be in a good position to compete during that contract.  So far nobody seems willing to go out on a limb with an offer.  What if all the teams are low-balling him and we came in at $18 million per for 8 years and made it public.  I am positive he would consider it.

[markson33]

I don't think a NL team would be wise to offer Fielder more than five years.  His father, just for example, dropped off significantly after he turned 32.  At that point he started hitting 16 HRs per year and DHing.

If an AL team makes him a DH now maybe they get 7 years out of him. 

[MaineBucs]

It appears that Prince wants considerably more than $18 - $20 mil/year for 8 years to sign.  Further, I've got to believe that if this were the number he would accept, he would already be a Nat.  I note that the Nats are paying Werth slightly more than $20 mil/year from 2014 - 2017.

If the Pirates chose to pursue Prince, I believe they would need to entice him using several methods.  One, an upfront signing bonus.  Perhaps $5 - $7.5 mil to sign.  Two, a significant salary.  Let's say $21 mil in years 1-3, $22.5 mil in years 4-5, $24 mil in year 6 with team options of $24 mil per year for years 7-8 with a team buy-out clause of $3 mil in either year.  Three, an opt out clause.  Fielder can opt out after year 4, meaning he could again enter free agency when he is still in his early 30's.  Under the scenario I propose the Pirate's total exposure for a guaranteed 6 year contract would be about $142 mil (including option they could decline before year 7); or about $23.5 mil per year.  Perhaps the above package would be enough to entice Prince to Pittsburgh.

That said, and as much as I would like to see Prince a Pirate, I'm not sure the contract I proposed is a good deal for Pittsburgh.  With the poor state of the current starting rotation, I believe the team would be hard-pressed to break .500 in 2012.   Perhaps the team's record would improve in 2013 if Cole, Tallion, Locke, Wilson and others are ready to help out, but with offering so much cash to Fielder, there wouldn't be that many dollars to attract or keep other talent.

In short, Prince likely is a bit (a lot) too pricey for the Pirates.  There is a big gap between your most expensive contract being $5 mil/season and one for $20+ mil/season.         

         

[RJReynolds]

It appears that Prince wants considerably more than $18 - $20 mil/year for 8 years to sign.  Further, I've got to believe that if this were the number he would accept, he would already be a Nat.  I note that the Nats are paying Werth slightly more than $20 mil/year from 2014 - 2017.

If the Pirates chose to pursue Prince, I believe they would need to entice him using several methods.  One, an upfront signing bonus.  Perhaps $5 - $7.5 mil to sign.  Two, a significant salary.  Let's say $21 mil in years 1-3, $22.5 mil in years 4-5, $24 mil in year 6 with team options of $24 mil per year for years 7-8 with a team buy-out clause of $3 mil in either year.  Three, an opt out clause.  Fielder can opt out after year 4, meaning he could again enter free agency when he is still in his early 30's.  Under the scenario I propose the Pirate's total exposure for a guaranteed 6 year contract would be about $142 mil (including option they could decline before year 7); or about $23.5 mil per year.  Perhaps the above package would be enough to entice Prince to Pittsburgh.

That said, and as much as I would like to see Prince a Pirate, I'm not sure the contract I proposed is a good deal for Pittsburgh.  With the poor state of the current starting rotation, I believe the team would be hard-pressed to break .500 in 2012.   Perhaps the team's record would improve in 2013 if Cole, Tallion, Locke, Wilson and others are ready to help out, but with offering so much cash to Fielder, there wouldn't be that many dollars to attract or keep other talent.

In short, Prince likely is a bit (a lot) too pricey for the Pirates.  There is a big gap between your most expensive contract being $5 mil/season and one for $20+ mil/season.         

         

Milwaukee Brewers salary numbers from the past several years:

?2011: $ 83,590,833

?2010: $ 90,408,000

?2009: $ 80,182,502

?2008: $ 80,937,499

?2007: $ 70,986,500

2012 will be around what 2011 was...low to mid 80's.

Please explain to me again how the Pirates cannot afford to add $23 million from one contract and still have room for more? I'm confused.

RJR

[gorillagogo]

It appears that Prince wants considerably more than $18 - $20 mil/year for 8 years to sign.  Further, I've got to believe that if this were the number he would accept, he would already be a Nat.  I note that the Nats are paying Werth slightly more than $20 mil/year from 2014 - 2017.

If the Pirates chose to pursue Prince, I believe they would need to entice him using several methods.  One, an upfront signing bonus.  Perhaps $5 - $7.5 mil to sign.  Two, a significant salary.  Let's say $21 mil in years 1-3, $22.5 mil in years 4-5, $24 mil in year 6 with team options of $24 mil per year for years 7-8 with a team buy-out clause of $3 mil in either year.  Three, an opt out clause.  Fielder can opt out after year 4, meaning he could again enter free agency when he is still in his early 30's.  Under the scenario I propose the Pirate's total exposure for a guaranteed 6 year contract would be about $142 mil (including option they could decline before year 7); or about $23.5 mil per year.  Perhaps the above package would be enough to entice Prince to Pittsburgh.

That said, and as much as I would like to see Prince a Pirate, I'm not sure the contract I proposed is a good deal for Pittsburgh.  With the poor state of the current starting rotation, I believe the team would be hard-pressed to break .500 in 2012.   Perhaps the team's record would improve in 2013 if Cole, Tallion, Locke, Wilson and others are ready to help out, but with offering so much cash to Fielder, there wouldn't be that many dollars to attract or keep other talent.

In short, Prince likely is a bit (a lot) too pricey for the Pirates.  There is a big gap between your most expensive contract being $5 mil/season and one for $20+ mil/season.         

         

Milwaukee Brewers salary numbers from the past several years:

?2011: $ 83,590,833

?2010: $ 90,408,000

?2009: $ 80,182,502

?2008: $ 80,937,499

?2007: $ 70,986,500

2012 will be around what 2011 was...low to mid 80's.

Please explain to me again how the Pirates cannot afford to add $23 million from one contract and still have room for more? I'm confused.

RJR

The Brewers have averaged between 34K and 37K fans per game over that timeframe, while the Pirates have averaged between 19K and 24K.

[RJReynolds]

I assume that you are purposfully leaving off the difference in the amounts that each team gets to suck off the MLB cash cow teet. It may not make up for the entire difference in attendance revenue...but it comes fairly close. And again I ask about the $30,000,000 annual difference in payroll and why we cannot possibly afford Prince Fielder and more.

RJR

[gamecckfn]

I assume that you are purposfully leaving off the difference in the amounts that each team gets to suck off the MLB cash cow teet. It may not make up for the entire difference in attendance revenue...but it comes fairly close. And again I ask about the $30,000,000 annual difference in payroll and why we cannot possibly afford Prince Fielder and more.

RJR

In any case, the Brewers still have much higher revenues and a much wealthier owner.  The Brewers also get 100% of the parking fees.  The Pirates get a minimal amount, if anything.