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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Carlos Santana (Read 1951 times)
UtahPirate
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #30 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 10:47am
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Doc wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 8:37am:
I see more positives to this signing than negatives.  To me, he was signed in order to be traded at the deadline.  At his age, and with the team still likely two years away from competing, he wasn't brought in to fill a hole that will complete the line-up on a team looking to make the playoffs.

The same can be said of Choi.  Both guys are here because there's no 1Bman in the system who's quite ready.  Hopefully by the end of July someone emerges, allowing BC to deal both Santana and Choi.  Of course, it would help if both have good seasons up to that point.  If not, signing both is still a chance worth taking.


I rolled my eyeballs when I saw this signing ... however, my oldest son who lives in Seattle, and probably attends 60% of their home games, thought this was a really good move. He says Santana is a huge clubhouse leader and said what his numbers don't show is how good he is in clutch situations. He also thought the shift rule would help as Santana sees extreme shifts, especially when hitting left handed.

I'm guessing that by this signing happening before the year was out -  and the money involved - that the BC brain trust targeted Santana early. Now Choi may have fallen to us as well as Diaz, but I would guess that we were after some combination to fill the DH/1B role.

I will say this, it is the first time since he came here that BC has actually paid attention to the MLB team. I want to see a more. It's time.

And it makes me a little curious what the Bucs are going to do with Andujar - and how the view his skills at this point.
  
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Babe Adams
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #31 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:30am
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And it makes me a little curious what the Bucs are going to do with Andujar - and how the view his skills at this point.


He recently started playing in the Dominican League: 7 games, 2 homers, .357/.400/.643. One game at first, six in left field.
  

"From here on in, I rag nobody" - Henry Wiggen
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #32 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 12:06pm
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I'm glad to have Santana, though he's more likely to platoon against lefty pitching and he'll be paid a lot for that role. As others have noted, I can't be unhappy about the Bucs finally spending some money!

I'm wondering who they will drop from their 40-man, cuz there ain't no room in the inn. In my dreams they clear a spot by trading Underwood for an A-league prospect. Hard to see a spot for Lewin Diaz now, so he's a suspect. But my preference is Ryan Vilade. With 1B full, Andujar is at least one righthanded OF to mix in with Reynolds and Suwinski, and maybe Bae. If Vilade is lost, no biggie. I like Oliva better anyway.
  
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fjk090852-7
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #33 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 12:38pm
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Babe Adams wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:30am:
Quote:
And it makes me a little curious what the Bucs are going to do with Andujar - and how the view his skills at this point.


He recently started playing in the Dominican League: 7 games, 2 homers, .357/.400/.643. One game at first, six in left field.

I hope Andujar is still in their plans. I really liked it when the Pirates claimed him off waivers in September. I am hoping that they don’t move Reynolds this offseason. You keep seeing articles written about teams having an interest in him. As of now , I like the lineup the Pirates can send out on any given game.
  
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MaineBucs
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #34 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 3:19pm
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I am squarely in the camp of not being excited about the team's new first base/DH combo of Santana/Choi.  Unless Nutting suddenly coughs up considerably more money than what I expect him to do this off-season, it means that management has committed about $11 mil of what is likely a thin payroll limit to a combo that didn't produce a lot of offense.

Look at the #'s, particularly the splits.

Santana had a decent #'s against lefties in all of 117 ab's: BA (.265), OBP (.387), SLG (.402) and OPS (.789), but he hit only 3 HR's and many of the above numbers reflect his 22 walks against lefties.   Against RH'ers, his BA was only .178 in 317 ab's and he struck out 73 times.  He did pop 16 HR's, but his OBP was only .288 and his SLG was .366.  (Note - Kevin Newman who had no power had an overall slugging percentage of .372 last year, and he can't hit RH'ers).

Choi, who is no defensive whiz at 1st, in 305 at against righties, produced a BA of .223, an OBP of .340, SLG at .390, and an OPS of .730 while hitting all of his 11 HR's from the right side.   Choi had very few at bats against lefties so I will avoid those stats. 

So, Santana, against lefties, gets on base, but has very limited power.  Santana's BA against righties was abysmal, and Choi's .223 is nothing to get excited about.

I understand the 'name' recognition regarding Santana and the fact that he was once a feared slugger.  That, however, no longer appears to be the case.  Choi has never approached Santana's past performances.   

In mid-October I wrote a lengthy post of what I would like to see the Pirates do this off-season.   I preferred to see the team use Andujar at first and to use the paltry funds allocated to the payroll to improve the pitching and to lock up several of the current players (I particularly noted Contreras and Keller).

The best I can say about either of the Santana/Choi acquisitions are:
a)  The Pirates did not give up any talent for either player.
b)  Both deals are for only 1 year.
c)  The team did not have any particular player who was ready to play 1st.

I hope that I am wrong and that the combo of Santana and Choi adds veteran guidance and some sock, but I don't see either adding much to next year's team.  And with the need to add someone at catcher --- players like Perez and Banhart likely will cost $4 mil or so --- I don't see any money to add any pitching.

With Park now gone, Vilade or Lewin Diaz should be one of the players designated rather than Marcano, Castillo (who had more HR's against lefties and a similar OPS to Santana), Swaggerty or the like.    

Oh well, time to remember that I am a Pirate fan and that being disappointed is a regular occurrence.
  
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Babe Adams
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #35 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 3:54pm
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the fact that he was once a feared slugger.


One small point of concern: Santana's walk rate has been around 15% most of his career. In the second half last year, that declined to about 11%. It could be random variation, or could be a sign that pitchers are willing to challenge him more. He went .183/.276/.386 after the All Star Game.
  

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Davis Square
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #36 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 9:10pm
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GreenWeenie wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 6:00am:
Word, except for the "Cutch" reference.

They want to bring Cutch back for BASEBALL reasons.  Smiley))))


I've been in favor of bringing Cutch back both for baseball AND sentimental reasons but with the Santana signing and the Choi trade it's hard to envision that happening.

You can only fit so many vets who'll play part-time and DH a lot on a single roster.

  
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #37 - Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:35pm
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I think that ship sailed when he was dealt to the Giants.  No way to know.  It's my gut feeling.

I hold an unpopular opinion on the issue.  I don't buy into that "clubhouse presence" nonsense.  These are Alpha Males.   Young Bucks have the goods these days.  I'm sure that they respect the veterans for their accomplishments and look up to them, but every guy has to pull his own weight.

I don't expect players to do anything more than to play.  It's nice when they're role models and maybe mentors, but that's not what i'd pay them for.  It's the managers and coaches job to manage and coach the players.
  

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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #38 - Nov 28th, 2022 at 8:42am
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GreenWeenie wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:35pm:
I think that ship sailed when he was dealt to the Giants.  No way to know.  It's my gut feeling.

I hold an unpopular opinion on the issue.  I don't buy into that "clubhouse presence" nonsense.  These are Alpha Males.   Young Bucks have the goods these days.  I'm sure that they respect the veterans for their accomplishments and look up to them, but every guy has to pull his own weight.

I don't expect players to do anything more than to play.  It's nice when they're role models and maybe mentors, but that's not what i'd pay them for.  It's the managers and coaches job to manage and coach the players.


It's also a potential PR disaster. If he comes back and it turns out he's done, what do you do? Cut him?
  
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WildwoodDave 2
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #39 - Nov 28th, 2022 at 11:11am
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Davis Square wrote on Nov 28th, 2022 at 8:42am:
GreenWeenie wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:35pm:
I think that ship sailed when he was dealt to the Giants.  No way to know.  It's my gut feeling.

I hold an unpopular opinion on the issue.  I don't buy into that "clubhouse presence" nonsense.  These are Alpha Males.   Young Bucks have the goods these days.  I'm sure that they respect the veterans for their accomplishments and look up to them, but every guy has to pull his own weight.

I don't expect players to do anything more than to play.  It's nice when they're role models and maybe mentors, but that's not what i'd pay them for.  It's the managers and coaches job to manage and coach the players.


It's also a potential PR disaster. If he comes back and it turns out he's done, what do you do? Cut him?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained
  
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #40 - Nov 28th, 2022 at 11:23am
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GreenWeenie wrote on Nov 27th, 2022 at 11:35pm:
I think that ship sailed when he was dealt to the Giants.  No way to know.  It's my gut feeling.

I hold an unpopular opinion on the issue.  I don't buy into that "clubhouse presence" nonsense.  These are Alpha Males.   Young Bucks have the goods these days.  I'm sure that they respect the veterans for their accomplishments and look up to them, but every guy has to pull his own weight.

I don't expect players to do anything more than to play.  It's nice when they're role models and maybe mentors, but that's not what i'd pay them for.  It's the managers and coaches job to manage and coach the players.

I think there can be value to veteran clubhouse leadership. A lot was made about how Stargell was a strong clubhouse leader. Frank Robinson did that for the Orioles. There have been many others throughout MLB history. This past season we had the incidents with not hustling, cell phone-gait and the sunflower seed snack at 3B in the middle of a play. Not big deals when a team is losing anyway. But unnecessary distractions can have a negative effect on a good team. If the Pirates are serious about improving, it helps to have veteran leadership behind the scenes to make younger players understand what is not acceptable.

However, it's tough to gain the respect of the younger players when they see the potential veteran leader struggling. Santana will be 37 in April. He hit .202 last year and .214 the year before that and his HR totals of 19 for each of the past 2 years were among his career lowest. Last year he set a career low in OBP and had his 3rd worst SLG. None of that is unexpected for an aging player near the end of his career. But it's unlikely he will earn respect like a Stargell or a Robinson who led by example both on and off the field. If Santana has a bounce-back year, he could be a good leader. But if his decline continues, I don't think he will have much value in the clubhouse.
  

There is no Choi in Mudville.
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #41 - Nov 28th, 2022 at 11:58am
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It has value, but it's an old tune.  I don't pay extra for it.  I don't pay anything for it. 

It means squat unless the guy performs.  That's what I'll pay for.

The leadership I want comes from the manager's office.
  

Nutting, Cherington, Shelton.

Serious Baseball.
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #42 - Nov 29th, 2022 at 1:52pm
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The Official Pirate Site now shows that Santana is on the roster, but it doesn't show who has been removed as there are now 41 players listed.
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #43 - Nov 29th, 2022 at 3:14pm
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So, what you're saying g is- Carlos Santana's Top 40.  Someone's not.  Wink
  

Nutting, Cherington, Shelton.

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Re: Carlos Santana
Reply #44 - Nov 29th, 2022 at 8:39pm
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MaineBucs wrote on Nov 29th, 2022 at 1:52pm:
The Official Pirate Site now shows that Santana is on the roster, but it doesn't show who has been removed as there are now 41 players listed.

Still waiting for a player to be removed from the roster. The Pirates said it will happen today, but so far no announcement.
  
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