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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread (Read 5599 times)
GreenWeenie
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #15 - Aug 21st, 2022 at 7:14pm
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The Experiment is based on being willing to give up proven MLB veterans for quality suspects.  It's in investment of sorts.

I don't expect Cherington to be any more candid about Shelton's performance than his own.
  

Nutting, Cherington, Shelton.

Serious Baseball.
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #16 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 8:37am
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Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:49pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:23pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 4:12pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 3:55pm:
Reading Cherington's remarks about how much he likes Shelton and what a great job he is doing makes me sick.  Statements like this just makes me convinced we have once again got a horrible GM.  Anyone who thinks Shelton is doing a great job is delusional barring on insanity.  I've seen enough of this guy he's had three years to start turning it around and as far as I can see the Pirates organization is worse off than the day he took over.  It's sooooo frustrating to think we have once again failed to choose a competent GM.   Such ridiculous statements are proof positive he needs to be gone along with his buddy Shelton.


What would you expect Cherington to say publicly about his employee?  Would you expect him to say the same things said about Shelton on this board?  Do you think that’s responsible?  Would you think it appropriate for your boss to point out your mistakes in a newspaper or on television?

I expect a thoughtful answer with some nuggets of reality.  If this is his reality, he needs to go along with Shelton.  I see failures in trades, draft picks, development of players, managers, as losses pile up with no end in site.  Simple, just give us the truth, it would do worlds of good for this team.  Some fans and most players would respond to the truth.  Misleading everyone is never the answer.


Imagine if BC spoke the truth about Shelton, that he lived in the reality you want.  How do you think the players would react?  Basically, they’d have license to ignore Shelton and his coaches the rest of the way.  While on the surface that might actually benefit them, there would be chaos on the field and in the locker room.

Imagine the effect it would have on acquiring future players.  Few free agents want to sign here to begin with.  After BC ripped his manager in public, no one would ever come here.  We know how sensitive they are now.  They’d might fear it would happen to them.

In addition, imagine how the Pirates marketing department would take the news of Shelton ripping the manager?  Ticket sales would crater even more than they have in the past few years. 

Not much good can come from having BC speak the words you want to hear.  We all know Shelton has failed.  We all know he needs to be fired.  Maybe BC has wanted to but Nutting has refused to allow it because he doesn’t want to pay two managers for the next 14 months.  With Nutting, that’s not so far fetched.

Shelton has proven he’s not capable of managing a game.  If this team turns good beginning next year, no way will BC want a bad manager ruining what he created.  When the team is good, Shelton will be gone.

I'm speechless after reading above, if any of this is true, there is no hope for this organization.  I'm ready for some college football.
  
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WildwoodDave 2
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #17 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:02am
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skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 8:37am:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:49pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:23pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 4:12pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 3:55pm:
Reading Cherington's remarks about how much he likes Shelton and what a great job he is doing makes me sick.  Statements like this just makes me convinced we have once again got a horrible GM.  Anyone who thinks Shelton is doing a great job is delusional barring on insanity.  I've seen enough of this guy he's had three years to start turning it around and as far as I can see the Pirates organization is worse off than the day he took over.  It's sooooo frustrating to think we have once again failed to choose a competent GM.   Such ridiculous statements are proof positive he needs to be gone along with his buddy Shelton.


What would you expect Cherington to say publicly about his employee?  Would you expect him to say the same things said about Shelton on this board?  Do you think that’s responsible?  Would you think it appropriate for your boss to point out your mistakes in a newspaper or on television?

I expect a thoughtful answer with some nuggets of reality.  If this is his reality, he needs to go along with Shelton.  I see failures in trades, draft picks, development of players, managers, as losses pile up with no end in site.  Simple, just give us the truth, it would do worlds of good for this team.  Some fans and most players would respond to the truth.  Misleading everyone is never the answer.


Imagine if BC spoke the truth about Shelton, that he lived in the reality you want.  How do you think the players would react?  Basically, they’d have license to ignore Shelton and his coaches the rest of the way.  While on the surface that might actually benefit them, there would be chaos on the field and in the locker room.

Imagine the effect it would have on acquiring future players.  Few free agents want to sign here to begin with.  After BC ripped his manager in public, no one would ever come here.  We know how sensitive they are now.  They’d might fear it would happen to them.

In addition, imagine how the Pirates marketing department would take the news of Shelton ripping the manager?  Ticket sales would crater even more than they have in the past few years. 

Not much good can come from having BC speak the words you want to hear.  We all know Shelton has failed.  We all know he needs to be fired.  Maybe BC has wanted to but Nutting has refused to allow it because he doesn’t want to pay two managers for the next 14 months.  With Nutting, that’s not so far fetched.

Shelton has proven he’s not capable of managing a game.  If this team turns good beginning next year, no way will BC want a bad manager ruining what he created.  When the team is good, Shelton will be gone.

I'm speechless after reading above, if any of this is true, there is no hope for this organization.  I'm ready for some college football.

What doc says has much merit and yes, I'm ready for college football
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #18 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:38am
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Whether the team is better next year or not, Shelton needs to go. He plays a part in whether they get better. A SP who gets pulled from a strong outing after 5 innings and a low pitch count probably won't improve as much as someone who is allowed to continue pitching a strong game. A hitter who goes to the bench the day after a strong game probably isn't going to progress as well as someone who can keep playing and build on that. Hitters who find themselves in different spots of the order every day in front of or behind player like VanMeter who have no business playing and drag down the team are probably not going to progress as well as players who have consistency and don't have automatic outs around them in the lineup. Obviously, Shelton would limit what a good team could do. But he also hinders improvement in a bad team. If they ever get a manager who knows what he's doing --and that a big if--I think we will see significant improvement in the team.
  

There is no Choi in Mudville.
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Doc
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #19 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:45am
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skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 8:37am:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:49pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:23pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 4:12pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 3:55pm:
Reading Cherington's remarks about how much he likes Shelton and what a great job he is doing makes me sick.  Statements like this just makes me convinced we have once again got a horrible GM.  Anyone who thinks Shelton is doing a great job is delusional barring on insanity.  I've seen enough of this guy he's had three years to start turning it around and as far as I can see the Pirates organization is worse off than the day he took over.  It's sooooo frustrating to think we have once again failed to choose a competent GM.   Such ridiculous statements are proof positive he needs to be gone along with his buddy Shelton.


What would you expect Cherington to say publicly about his employee?  Would you expect him to say the same things said about Shelton on this board?  Do you think that’s responsible?  Would you think it appropriate for your boss to point out your mistakes in a newspaper or on television?

I expect a thoughtful answer with some nuggets of reality.  If this is his reality, he needs to go along with Shelton.  I see failures in trades, draft picks, development of players, managers, as losses pile up with no end in site.  Simple, just give us the truth, it would do worlds of good for this team.  Some fans and most players would respond to the truth.  Misleading everyone is never the answer.


Imagine if BC spoke the truth about Shelton, that he lived in the reality you want.  How do you think the players would react?  Basically, they’d have license to ignore Shelton and his coaches the rest of the way.  While on the surface that might actually benefit them, there would be chaos on the field and in the locker room.

Imagine the effect it would have on acquiring future players.  Few free agents want to sign here to begin with.  After BC ripped his manager in public, no one would ever come here.  We know how sensitive they are now.  They’d might fear it would happen to them.

In addition, imagine how the Pirates marketing department would take the news of Shelton ripping the manager?  Ticket sales would crater even more than they have in the past few years. 

Not much good can come from having BC speak the words you want to hear.  We all know Shelton has failed.  We all know he needs to be fired.  Maybe BC has wanted to but Nutting has refused to allow it because he doesn’t want to pay two managers for the next 14 months.  With Nutting, that’s not so far fetched.

Shelton has proven he’s not capable of managing a game.  If this team turns good beginning next year, no way will BC want a bad manager ruining what he created.  When the team is good, Shelton will be gone.

I'm speechless after reading above, if any of this is true, there is no hope for this organization.  I'm ready for some college football.


It's not that there's no hope for the organization, it's that no GM anywhere in any sport would ever rip his manager in the media.  It just isn't done for the reasons I mentioned.  And one more to add to the list is this:  if BC criticized Shelton like some would want and then fired him, imagine the lawsuit that would ensue.  Shelton's agent would have a field day.
  
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Doc
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #20 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:52am
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Bobster wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:38am:
Whether the team is better next year or not, Shelton needs to go. He plays a part in whether they get better. A SP who gets pulled from a strong outing after 5 innings and a low pitch count probably won't improve as much as someone who is allowed to continue pitching a strong game. A hitter who goes to the bench the day after a strong game probably isn't going to progress as well as someone who can keep playing and build on that. Hitters who find themselves in different spots of the order every day in front of or behind player like VanMeter who have no business playing and drag down the team are probably not going to progress as well as players who have consistency and don't have automatic outs around them in the lineup. Obviously, Shelton would limit what a good team could do. But he also hinders improvement in a bad team. If they ever get a manager who knows what he's doing --and that a big if--I think we will see significant improvement in the team. 


No one could ever argue against any of that.  But I don't think Shelton's going anywhere until the right players are here for good.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #21 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:58am
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GMs never rip their manager publicly. For one thing, it was BC who hired Shelton so that would make BC look bad. The most you'll ever get from a GM is a sudden firing of a manager with an explanation of "philosophical differences." That's GM-speak for "We didn't like how he managed." In the current Pirates situation, the problem is not that BC failed to publicly criticize Shelton. No GM would do that. The problem was announcing he'll return. Just say nothing about it or else say no decisions have yet been made.
  

There is no Choi in Mudville.
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #22 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 10:20am
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Bobster wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:58am:
GMs never rip their manager publicly. For one thing, it was BC who hired Shelton so that would make BC look bad. The most you'll ever get from a GM is a sudden firing of a manager with an explanation of "philosophical differences." That's GM-speak for "We didn't like how he managed." In the current Pirates situation, the problem is not that BC failed to publicly criticize Shelton. No GM would do that. The problem was announcing he'll return. Just say nothing about it or else say no decisions have yet been made. 


I agree that would've been miles better than what he said.  I can only speculate that he said what he did in order to keep the players in line.  If they felt Shelton was on his way out, it wouldn't take much for control to be lost.  Things are bad enough there without chaos ensuing.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #23 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 2:03pm
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Ok I guess it's time to weigh in. Day in and Day out most of us
including myself are bashing Shelton ( he certainly deserves it) I previously said he makes McClendon and Russell look good. Cherington has his detractors but to a lesser extent.
Please review the following team salaries for 2022
Mets 235.6 million  1st place
Dodgers 214.5 "     1st place ( best record in baseball)
Yankees 211.2 "     1st place)
Cardinals 137.2 "     1st place (lousy division)
PIrates    34.5 "       LAST PLACE
No Salary Cap and NO Floor.
Sorry guys, this is the way it's going to be with the current
ownership, Nutting gives Cherington a budget and that's what
he has to work with. I know we are waiting for the "young bloods"to arrive. Until then, Cherington picks up these rejects and hopes to catch lightening in a bottle.
We must also remember that even when (being optimistic) the Bucs are contenders, the big spenders will still be there.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #24 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 2:16pm
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WildwoodDave 2 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 2:03pm:
Ok I guess it's time to weigh in. Day in and Day out most of us
including myself are bashing Shelton ( he certainly deserves it) I previously said he makes McClendon and Russell look good. Cherington has his detractors but to a lesser extent.
Please review the following team salaries for 2022
Mets 235.6 million  1st place
Dodgers 214.5 "     1st place ( best record in baseball)
Yankees 211.2 "     1st place)
Cardinals 137.2 "     1st place (lousy division)
PIrates    34.5 "       LAST PLACE
No Salary Cap and NO Floor.
Sorry guys, this is the way it's going to be with the current
ownership, Nutting gives Cherington a budget and that's what
he has to work with. I know we are waiting for the "young bloods"to arrive. Until then, Cherington picks up these rejects and hopes to catch lightening in a bottle.
We must also remember that even when (being optimistic) the Bucs are contenders, the big spenders will still be there.



the thing that annoys most about the low budget years and is there is no evidence that anything is being saved to increase payroll in the future. 

I could understand having a payroll this low if 30-40 million was put into savings to use when the team is ready to contend but that doesn't happen.   

The low payroll years are years where the team has low revenue too - but that doesn't mean profits go down.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #25 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 4:24pm
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Ecbucs wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 2:16pm:
WildwoodDave 2 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2022 at 2:03pm:
Ok I guess it's time to weigh in. Day in and Day out most of us
including myself are bashing Shelton ( he certainly deserves it) I previously said he makes McClendon and Russell look good. Cherington has his detractors but to a lesser extent.
Please review the following team salaries for 2022
Mets 235.6 million  1st place
Dodgers 214.5 "     1st place ( best record in baseball)
Yankees 211.2 "     1st place)
Cardinals 137.2 "     1st place (lousy division)
PIrates    34.5 "       LAST PLACE
No Salary Cap and NO Floor.
Sorry guys, this is the way it's going to be with the current
ownership, Nutting gives Cherington a budget and that's what
he has to work with. I know we are waiting for the "young bloods"to arrive. Until then, Cherington picks up these rejects and hopes to catch lightening in a bottle.
We must also remember that even when (being optimistic) the Bucs are contenders, the big spenders will still be there.



the thing that annoys most about the low budget years and is there is no evidence that anything is being saved to increase payroll in the future. 

I could understand having a payroll this low if 30-40 million was put into savings to use when the team is ready to contend but that doesn't happen.   

The low payroll years are years where the team has low revenue too - but that doesn't mean profits go down.


Exactly, EC.  I have no doubt money is being saved, but we already have evidence it won’t be used on future payrolls.  That promise was made way back during Huntington’s time here.  We never saw a substantial jump in payroll, we never saw the signing of a big time free agent to fill a need, even during the playoff years when a top-of-the-rotation pitcher or power hitting 1Bman could very well have put the club over the top and into a World Series.

I always believe what someone does, not what they say they’ll do.  Nutting is not to be trusted or believed, and profit will always come first with his business.  That’s why he’ll always be the problem here, the roadblock that will prevent success on the field, unless a GM is able to work a miracle of miracles on a shoestring, spit, and some bent nails.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #26 - Aug 24th, 2022 at 1:11pm
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #27 - Aug 24th, 2022 at 1:24pm
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mouse wrote on Aug 24th, 2022 at 1:11pm:


There was nothing but the truth in the section on Nutting.
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #28 - Aug 24th, 2022 at 4:16pm
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Doc wrote on Aug 24th, 2022 at 1:24pm:
mouse wrote on Aug 24th, 2022 at 1:11pm:


There was nothing but the truth in the section on Nutting.

No originality in that article. We have been saying that all along
  
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Re: Official 2022 Pirates Owner/Front Office Bitching Thread
Reply #29 - Aug 24th, 2022 at 6:33pm
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Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:49pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:23pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 4:12pm:
skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 21st, 2022 at 3:55pm:
Reading Cherington's remarks about how much he likes Shelton and what a great job he is doing makes me sick.  Statements like this just makes me convinced we have once again got a horrible GM.  Anyone who thinks Shelton is doing a great job is delusional barring on insanity.  I've seen enough of this guy he's had three years to start turning it around and as far as I can see the Pirates organization is worse off than the day he took over.  It's sooooo frustrating to think we have once again failed to choose a competent GM.   Such ridiculous statements are proof positive he needs to be gone along with his buddy Shelton.


What would you expect Cherington to say publicly about his employee?  Would you expect him to say the same things said about Shelton on this board?  Do you think that’s responsible?  Would you think it appropriate for your boss to point out your mistakes in a newspaper or on television?

I expect a thoughtful answer with some nuggets of reality.  If this is his reality, he needs to go along with Shelton.  I see failures in trades, draft picks, development of players, managers, as losses pile up with no end in site.  Simple, just give us the truth, it would do worlds of good for this team.  Some fans and most players would respond to the truth.  Misleading everyone is never the answer.


Imagine if BC spoke the truth about Shelton, that he lived in the reality you want.  How do you think the players would react?  Basically, they’d have license to ignore Shelton and his coaches the rest of the way.  While on the surface that might actually benefit them, there would be chaos on the field and in the locker room.

Imagine the effect it would have on acquiring future players.  Few free agents want to sign here to begin with.  After BC ripped his manager in public, no one would ever come here.  We know how sensitive they are now.  They’d might fear it would happen to them.

In addition, imagine how the Pirates marketing department would take the news of Shelton ripping the manager?  Ticket sales would crater even more than they have in the past few years. 

Not much good can come from having BC speak the words you want to hear.  We all know Shelton has failed.  We all know he needs to be fired.  Maybe BC has wanted to but Nutting has refused to allow it because he doesn’t want to pay two managers for the next 14 months.  With Nutting, that’s not so far fetched.

Shelton has proven he’s not capable of managing a game.  If this team turns good beginning next year, no way will BC want a bad manager ruining what he created.  When the team is good, Shelton will be gone.

So I've been trying to imagine how much worse it would be if Cherington flat out said he wasn't happy with Shelton's job.  There's comments he would loose control of this team, etc.  Well I'm pretty sure this team can't get any worse no matter how bad he criticized Shelton.  This team has hit rock bottom.  Fire Shelton now!  Fire Shelton now!
  
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