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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds (Read 751 times)
skinnyhorse
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #30 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 12:51pm
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GreenWeenie wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:05am:
It means that Mustgroove can't carry Cole's jock.

I remember Garret Cole with the Pirates and he was not good at all the last 2 years with the Pirates.  I also remember Charlie Morton, and he was just awful.  I think  has good stuff and is real competitive like Cole.  These types can get frustrated with a team if they feel there's no way to win.  It's up to Cherington and Shelton to put the best guys on the field showing they can be competitive.  It looks like they're just trying to get the 1st pick in the draft.  If that's the case they need to have a private talk with guys like Musgrove and Williams.
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #31 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 1:33pm
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We don't HAVE best guys.  That's our problem.  Smiley))))      but, I know what you mean.

I'm not sure that GMs or managers need to do a lot of talking.  Everyone knows the MLB drill.  Produce, or you run the risk of being replaced by some other LMG who won't produce.  After all, Mustgroove was sent to The Burgh to make room for the not very good Cole.

Overall, I agree with you.
« Last Edit: Sep 16th, 2020 at 1:41pm by GreenWeenie »  
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Doc
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #32 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 3:05pm
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Bobster wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:42am:
Doc wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Bobster wrote on Sep 15th, 2020 at 9:03pm:
Doc wrote on Sep 15th, 2020 at 8:44pm:
See what I mean?  Make that three strike outs in three at bats.

The Reds announcer called Polanco "a sucker for a high fastball." I'd say the Pirates are suckers for playing him.

BC doesn't have to defend the moves of the prior regime. BC wasn't the one who said Polanco would be part of a dream OF. So I just don't see why Polanco continues to play as if he's too good not to. They are looking at players so why waste time with Polanco? There a solid body of evidence that at his very best he could achieve mediocrity. He's a 7 year veteran, a career .247 hitter with a career best .258. Not a good fielder or base runner. And not even a legit power hitter with only 2 seasons of low 20 HRs as his best. And 4 SBs in the last 4 years. I'd rather see anybody play than Polanco. He has nothing more to prove.


The Pirates kept saying how good he looked in both Spring Training sessions.  This new management didn't know what he turns into once the season starts?  I don't know how.  His body of work over his previous seasons should've made it apparent.  They now have a bunch of games to know.  Enough already.

I truly hope BC takes a fresh approach and doesn't rely on existing reports about players from before he was hired. I suspect he's being told how much talent Polanco has and how they need to bring it out of him. And if he's listening to the old organizational BS about Polanco then he's probably listening to them on other players too (Neverauskas?, Bell at 1B?). A huge problem this organization has had is its incompetence in assessing talent. BC needs to say "Enough already. If these guys can't do the job after so many chances we'll find someone else."

But this idea that if they keep playing Polanco he'll become the player they always wished he would be but never was...or that if they keep putting Bell at 1B he'll become adequate....or if they keep pitching Neveraukas he'll become a great reliever and pave the way for the Pirates to tap into that rich Lithuanian pitching market  Roll Eyes is not accomplishing anything.




Agree.  Players have bad years, and it's premature to give-up on one when that happens.  But after six-plus seasons of Polanco's only consistency being his inconsistency, it's time to rip off the band-aid and start over.  Even if he somehow musters a good first four months next year, no GM worth his salt will think Polanco has finally figured it out and will part with a good player or two to acquire him.
  
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JollyRoger
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #33 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:07pm
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SadeBabe Adams wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:46am:
WildwoodDave wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 8:33am:
Yep- #1 pick looking good


As we've discussed elsewhere, it's not set in stone that this year's worst record gets the first pick. 

This is quick and dirty, fewest wins for 2019-20 combined:

Tigers: 47+21=68
Orioles: 54+21=75
Royals: 59+20=79
Marlins: 57+24=81
Pirates: 69+14=83
Mariners: 68+22=90
Angels: 72+20=92
Rockies: 71+ 21=92
Blue Jays: 67+26=93
Rangers: 78+17=95
Reds: 75+24=99

Formula where 2020 counts double:

Tigers: 47+21+21=89
Orioles: 54+21+21=96
Pirates: 69+14+14=97
Royals: 59+20+20=99
Marlins: 57+24+24= 105

Tigers have 11 games scheduled, Orioles 12, Royals 11, Pirates 13, Marlins 14

Anyway, if they reach back to 2019, it'll be pretty hard to beat the Tigers.

Edit: I've also seen a suggestion they'll go back 162 games, including about the last hundred games of 2019. Tigers 46-105, with 11 to play, Pirates 54-95, with 13 to play.  Tigers really stink.

True that MLB May change the rules for the draft next year.
However it would be a tough sell having the Tigers get the #1 two years in a row given their big improvement this year.
I can envision MLB going to a lottery next year which would be the Pirates luck of having the worst record and having another team snake the #1 pick away. Even worse would be having the large market Red Sox winning the lottery
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #34 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:55pm
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This is where I've always agreed with Mike Greenberg.

The first pick should go to the team that DESERVES to get it- the world champion.  The Pirates would pick dead last where they belong.

That prevents tanking on the spot; rather, just going through the motions.  Successful teams reap the reward, and if a team wants to be successful, it will do all it can to become so.

And, good-bye BOB.  Cheapskates will immediately exit stage left.
  
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JollyRoger
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #35 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 1:30am
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GreenWeenie wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:55pm:
This is where I've always agreed with Mike Greenberg.

The first pick should go to the team that DESERVES to get it- the world champion.  The Pirates would pick dead last where they belong.

That prevents tanking on the spot; rather, just going through the motions.  Successful teams reap the reward, and if a team wants to be successful, it will do all it can to become so.

And, good-bye BOB.  Cheapskates will immediately exit stage left.

GW. I think you may have partaken in a few too many Iron City’s.
Your suggestion would lead to the rich getting richer. The only way a team in a small market can compete without a salary cap or salary floor is through the draft and low cost International signings.

At any rate; the Bucs now have a 3 game lead with 12 games to go for the #1 pick. I hope Rocker is everything he is being hyped up to be.
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #36 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:23am
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I'm OK with dynasties.  I had no problem when the Bucs were division leaders in the 70s and 90s.

People love Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.  Beating a great team makes fans feel good. 

Reward a team for playing like garbage?  No thanks.  I have no pity for guys like BOB.  Scroo him.

Either play to win or get out.

Win, and reap the rewards.

Bad teams have other ways to improve.

That's where I stand.
« Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:29am by GreenWeenie »  
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Babe Adams
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #37 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 4:36pm
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Quote:
I can envision MLB going to a lottery next year which would be the Pirates luck of having the worst record and having another team snake the #1 pick away.


I guess one thing in the Pirates' favor is that no one will much care if they get the No. 1, figuring they won't do much with it.
  

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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #38 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 4:56pm
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Babe Adams wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 4:36pm:
Quote:
I can envision MLB going to a lottery next year which would be the Pirates luck of having the worst record and having another team snake the #1 pick away.


I guess one thing in the Pirates' favor is that no one will much care if they get the No. 1, figuring they won't do much with it.

We can hope any way- Could be another Cole out there. At least for a little while
  
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #39 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:24pm
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WildwoodDave wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 4:56pm:
Babe Adams wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 4:36pm:
Quote:
I can envision MLB going to a lottery next year which would be the Pirates luck of having the worst record and having another team snake the #1 pick away.


I guess one thing in the Pirates' favor is that no one will much care if they get the No. 1, figuring they won't do much with it.

We can hope any way- Could be another Cole out there. At least for a little while

The Pirates only got 1 outstanding year from Cole out of the 5 years he was with them. Not much for a #1 overall pick. It doesn't help the Pirates to have the 1st pick if he doesn't reach expectations until he's with another team.
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #40 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:34pm
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A larger number of #1s don't make the majors for one reason or another than some people realize.

Of those who do.....let's start with- most don't even join the club right away, so there's no immediate help.

And, when they do....the level of their contribution varies, of course.

The bottom line is- if this is what people are counting on, then they haven't learned enough from history.

But...."this will be different."

BOB doesn't NEED to improve the club.  He has people believing in this stuff.
  
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JollyRoger
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #41 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 8:30pm
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I kind of see this 2020 version of the Pirates as completely devoid of talent minus a very few exceptions. I think they resemble the Washington Nationals of a decade ago. The Nationals drafted Strausburg #1 in 2009. (Kumer Rocker has been compared to Strausburg for the 2021 draft). In 2010 the Nationals again had the #1 pick and chose Bryce Harper as a no brainer. 2011 the Pirates chose Cole with the #1 while the National chose Rendon with the #4. In 3 years the Nats through the draft alone had a strong core. They then spent on International talent like Soto.

I think Nick Gonzales is going to be a Star. Hopefully Rocker (if the Bucs get him) will live up to the hype. The Bucs will need to spend up to their limit and hit on some International signings.
In addition, players like Priester, Hayes, Cruz will need to be impact players. That’s when we can realistically expect to contend

Let’s face it. There will not be any significant payroll infusion from Scrooge Nutting and we won’t have Mark Cuban riding in on a white horse to save the organization because Scrooge won’t sell.
  
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #42 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 8:51pm
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GreenWeenie wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:34pm:
A larger number of #1s don't make the majors for one reason or another than some people realize.

Of those who do.....let's start with- most don't even join the club right away, so there's no immediate help.

And, when they do....the level of their contribution varies, of course.

The bottom line is- if this is what people are counting on, then they haven't learned enough from history.

But...."this will be different."

BOB doesn't NEED to improve the club.  He has people believing in this stuff.


Here are Stephen Strasburg stats: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/strasst01.shtml

He made 10.4 million in 2016.  Prior to 2016 he had won 54 games including 1 15 win season and 1 14 win season. He made 30 starts once and 34 in another season.


in 2017 and 2018 he made over 18 million a season.

then 38 million in 2019 and became a free agent where he is now earning 35 million a year for 7 years. 



Anthony Rendon earned 12 million and then 18 million his last two years before free agency, then signed a six year $210 million contract.

There is no way the Bucs will pay anyone similar amounts.

Other than having a lucky year, I don't see how the Pirates will ever be willing to pay for starting pitching (or anywhere else for that matter).

Unless the Pirates change the way they operate if they sign a great player they will only be able to pay him for 4 or 5 seasons.  Hard to build a core that way.

  
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #43 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 9:15pm
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Ecbucs wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 8:51pm:
GreenWeenie wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:34pm:
A larger number of #1s don't make the majors for one reason or another than some people realize.

Of those who do.....let's start with- most don't even join the club right away, so there's no immediate help.

And, when they do....the level of their contribution varies, of course.

The bottom line is- if this is what people are counting on, then they haven't learned enough from history.

But...."this will be different."

BOB doesn't NEED to improve the club.  He has people believing in this stuff.


Here are Stephen Strasburg stats: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/strasst01.shtml

He made 10.4 million in 2016.  Prior to 2016 he had won 54 games including 1 15 win season and 1 14 win season. He made 30 starts once and 34 in another season.


in 2017 and 2018 he made over 18 million a season.

then 38 million in 2019 and became a free agent where he is now earning 35 million a year for 7 years. 



Anthony Rendon earned 12 million and then 18 million his last two years before free agency, then signed a six year $210 million contract.

There is no way the Bucs will pay anyone similar amounts.

Other than having a lucky year, I don't see how the Pirates will ever be willing to pay for starting pitching (or anywhere else for that matter).

Unless the Pirates change the way they operate if they sign a great player they will only be able to pay him for 4 or 5 seasons.  Hard to build a core that way.


Agreed that current ownership will not pay to keep any stars that the Pirates develop. That is why the only chance is to draft players who become impact players along with impact International signings. We could then have a window of contention, That window could be extended by traded of our stars for young comparable talent. That however requires a smart and competent scouting and player development department which has been a weak point
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Reply #44 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:58am
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Ecbucs wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 8:51pm:
GreenWeenie wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:34pm:
A larger number of #1s don't make the majors for one reason or another than some people realize.

Of those who do.....let's start with- most don't even join the club right away, so there's no immediate help.

And, when they do....the level of their contribution varies, of course.

The bottom line is- if this is what people are counting on, then they haven't learned enough from history.

But...."this will be different."

BOB doesn't NEED to improve the club.  He has people believing in this stuff.


Here are Stephen Strasburg stats: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/strasst01.shtml

He made 10.4 million in 2016.  Prior to 2016 he had won 54 games including 1 15 win season and 1 14 win season. He made 30 starts once and 34 in another season.


in 2017 and 2018 he made over 18 million a season.

then 38 million in 2019 and became a free agent where he is now earning 35 million a year for 7 years. 



Anthony Rendon earned 12 million and then 18 million his last two years before free agency, then signed a six year $210 million contract.

There is no way the Bucs will pay anyone similar amounts.

Other than having a lucky year, I don't see how the Pirates will ever be willing to pay for starting pitching (or anywhere else for that matter).

Unless the Pirates change the way they operate if they sign a great player they will only be able to pay him for 4 or 5 seasons.  Hard to build a core that way.



I certainly agree.  I dnk how much this helps, but I believe that this hockey guy's job is to increase revenue from non-gate sources....or, even the gate, too, because of corporate season ticket pages.  Will it make enough of a difference?  Can't say.

BOB has the money.  Maybe not enough to pay for 35 stars, but he has the money.  Anytime you think he doesn't have the money, he has the money.  Maybe not Yankees or Dodgers money, but he has the money.  He just doesn't want to pay it.
  
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