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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tanking (Read 762 times)
GreenWeenie
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Re: Tanking
Reply #15 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 12:27am
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I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove.  I just don't.

Great guy.  Maybe an adequate player.

We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
  
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Bobster
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Re: Tanking
Reply #16 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:08am
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GreenWeenie wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 12:27am:
I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove.  I just don't.

Great guy.  Maybe an adequate player.

We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.

I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.

His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2020 at 8:33am by Bobster »  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Tanking
Reply #17 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:18am
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Owns a cool glove.

Talks a great game.

Agree- up, down, and all around.  If he was more consistent, it would help a great deal.
  
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Doc
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Re: Tanking
Reply #18 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:49am
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Davis Square wrote on Aug 10th, 2020 at 9:14pm:
Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.

Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.

I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.


That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes.  He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh.  He has no one to trade to acquire young talent.  He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner.  It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.
  
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skinnyhorse
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Re: Tanking
Reply #19 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 9:58am
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Bobster wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:08am:
GreenWeenie wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 12:27am:
I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove.  I just don't.

Great guy.  Maybe an adequate player.

We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.

I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.

His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.

Does this remind you of anything, really good stuff, but inconsistent, Glasnow, Cole maybe.  The thing I like about him is he's a competitor much like Cole you can't put a value on that.  It was obvious Cole wanted out, because it became apparent the Pirates were going no where and he was wasting his time.  This can become a problem with the entire team unless improvements start happening soon.  I'm not sure the manager and front office understand this.  They must get buy in from the players and unless they get things turned around soon it's going to metastasis.   I don't get any feeling that they are interested in winning right now, that has to change or we're in for another record losing streak.  Players are emotional and right now it looks like everyone is just going through the motions.  That falls on the manager.

« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2020 at 10:04am by skinnyhorse »  
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IABucFan
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Re: Tanking
Reply #20 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 10:03am
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Quite honestly, I think the Pirates would be hard-pressed to finish above .500 in the AA Eastern League, and I’m absolutely serious about that. This team is absolutely dreadful, like beyond bad. It’s actually been kind of nice...I haven’t watched a game or read a game thread in about two weeks. I haven’t spent one dime on MLB this year and don’t intend to. In fact, I think out of generosity and compassion for the Cards situation, they should forfeit the remaining games they have with St. Louis this year.
  
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Bobster
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Re: Tanking
Reply #21 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 11:15am
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skinnyhorse wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 9:58am:
Bobster wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:08am:
GreenWeenie wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 12:27am:
I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove.  I just don't.

Great guy.  Maybe an adequate player.

We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.

I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.

His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.

Does this remind you of anything, really good stuff, but inconsistent, Glasnow, Cole maybe.  The thing I like about him is he's a competitor much like Cole you can't put a value on that.  It was obvious Cole wanted out, because it became apparent the Pirates were going no where and he was wasting his time.  This can become a problem with the entire team unless improvements start happening soon.  I'm not sure the manager and front office understand this.  They must get buy in from the players and unless they get things turned around soon it's going to metastasis.   I don't get any feeling that they are interested in winning right now, that has to change or we're in for another record losing streak.  Players are emotional and right now it looks like everyone is just going through the motions.  That falls on the manager.

Yeah, I can see the similarities somewhat. Although I don't think Musgrove has the "stuff" that Cole and Glasnow have. But he's a competitor. And in that vein, part of his game was that he could handle the bat and run the bases. But now he sits and watches DHs. Pre DH, Brault and Musgrove gave the Bucs a slight edge because they added more offense than the opposing pitcher. But Pirate hitting is so bad that they now face the disadvantage of every opponent having a better DH. 

Both Cole and Morton failed to reach their potential until they got to the Astros. I don't know about Morton but Cole credited the Astros with changing his approach and making him a better pitcher. But these are the same Astros who removed the struggling Musgrove from their rotation and put him in the BP where he excelled. If the Astros are really that good at getting the most out of pitchers, it doesn't say much for Musgrove that the Astros found him better suited for the BP. 
  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #22 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 11:34am
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IMO, Musgrove is an ideal #5 starter. He can be lights out, or putrid. I'd rather have that than consistent mediocrity. Problem is, we have him pegged as our #1. I like Musgrove and actually think he can be part of a good team in Pittsburgh, but at the back of the rotation...not the front.
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Tanking
Reply #23 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 1:37pm
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GreenWeenie wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 11:38am:
Is there any of last season's LCS  clubs that would trade one of their pitchers for him?

Probably not.

And, Cole won 19 games in a year for us, as a reminder.
I expect 22, 23-year-olds to have consistency challenges.  Not sure that I expect guys of Mustgroove's age to as often.  He should be cruising by now.

  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #24 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 3:33pm
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IABucFan wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 11:34am:
IMO, Musgrove is an ideal #5 starter. He can be lights out, or putrid. I'd rather have that than consistent mediocrity. Problem is, we have him pegged as our #1. I like Musgrove and actually think he can be part of a good team in Pittsburgh, but at the back of the rotation...not the front.

By the time Pittsburgh has a good team, Musgrove will be long gone or retired
  
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Tanking
Reply #25 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 4:52pm
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That's the problem.

The reason the team's no good is.....because of who's on it.

The BIG problem is- Mustgroove could be among the better on a bad bunch.  He's one of the taller midgets in the circus. 

Since he's still a midget, we arent going to win many basketball games. 

  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #26 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 5:32pm
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GreenWeenie wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 4:52pm:
That's the problem.

The reason the team's no good is.....because of who's on it.

The BIG problem is- Mustgroove could be among the better on a bad bunch.  He's one of the taller midgets in the circus. 

Since he's still a midget, we arent going to win many basketball games. 

The Pirates don't acquire established, productive players because they come with big contracts. So they get players like Musgrove in hopes that in a year or 2 they will become productive. Maybe he'll eventually become consistent. But he's a FA in 3 years. So at best they have 2 more years with him during which he's still trying to figure things out. But in reality they will trade him prior to or during the 2022 season to at least get something for him before he walks.
  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #27 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 5:58pm
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Doc wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:49am:
Davis Square wrote on Aug 10th, 2020 at 9:14pm:
Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.

Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.

I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.


That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes.  He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh.  He has no one to trade to acquire young talent.  He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner.  It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.


To say he has no one to trade isn't quite accurate. I think Bell would have been attractive to a lot of teams this offseason. Frazier, maybe. Possibly Trevor Williams.

I mean, if you're going to rebuild, then rebuild, or try to, at least. My issue with this year is they decided to take a year and do nothing. Which does not bode well for their plans for upcoming years.
  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #28 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:34pm
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Davis Square wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 5:58pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:49am:
Davis Square wrote on Aug 10th, 2020 at 9:14pm:
Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.

Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.

I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.


That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes.  He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh.  He has no one to trade to acquire young talent.  He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner.  It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.


To say he has no one to trade isn't quite accurate. I think Bell would have been attractive to a lot of teams this offseason. Frazier, maybe. Possibly Trevor Williams.

I mean, if you're going to rebuild, then rebuild, or try to, at least. My issue with this year is they decided to take a year and do nothing. Which does not bode well for their plans for upcoming years.


I'm not as sure about Bell returning much.  He had a couple of good months last year and then was less than average.  In addition, he's attractive to only half of the major league clubs because his defense is suspect at best.   And if he is good, why trade him at all?  He's young and the team's best hitter.  He's the kind of player BC would be trying to get back in a trade.

I also don't think Frazier would return much.  He'd be a nice player on a team that would surround him with better players.  I like him, but he wouldn't replace many other 2Bmen around baseball.

Travis Williams might bring something decent back, but he's the team's best pitcher, which isn't saying much.  But he wouldn't be any other teams' best pitcher, so I don't suspect he'd return much in a trade, either.  Besides, as we've seen from the starting pitching this year, the team is going to need him as it tries to get better over the next few years.

If they've decided to take this year to "do nothing", why would you expect them to continue to do nothing next year?  The Player's Union, not to mention the fans, would have none of it.  Nutting would come under intense pressure from the Union and the fans, who have already been showing signs of being fed up with him, would stay away in droves. 

I guess I should ask, what you mean by "doing nothing"?  What do you think BC's plan was, or has been, for this year?

I agree with your statement about rebuilding. With a new Front Office and manager, the fans would be on board with starting over and would likely be in full support.
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:41pm by Doc »  
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Re: Tanking
Reply #29 - Aug 11th, 2020 at 7:01pm
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Doc wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:34pm:
Davis Square wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 5:58pm:
Doc wrote on Aug 11th, 2020 at 6:49am:
Davis Square wrote on Aug 10th, 2020 at 9:14pm:
Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.

Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.

I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.


That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes.  He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh.  He has no one to trade to acquire young talent.  He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner.  It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.


To say he has no one to trade isn't quite accurate. I think Bell would have been attractive to a lot of teams this offseason. Frazier, maybe. Possibly Trevor Williams.

I mean, if you're going to rebuild, then rebuild, or try to, at least. My issue with this year is they decided to take a year and do nothing. Which does not bode well for their plans for upcoming years.


I'm not as sure about Bell returning much.  He had a couple of good months last year and then was less than average.  In addition, he's attractive to only half of the major league clubs because his defense is suspect at best.   And if he is good, why trade him at all?  He's young and the team's best hitter.  He's the kind of player BC would be trying to get back in a trade.

I also don't think Frazier would return much.  He'd be a nice player on a team that would surround him with better players.  I like him, but he wouldn't replace many other 2Bmen around baseball.

Travis Williams might bring something decent back, but he's the team's best pitcher, which isn't saying much.  But he wouldn't be any other teams' best pitcher, so I don't suspect he'd return much in a trade, either.  Besides, as we've seen from the starting pitching this year, the team is going to need him as it tries to get better over the next few years.

If they've decided to take this year to "do nothing", why would you expect them to continue to do nothing next year?  The Player's Union, not to mention the fans, would have none of it.  Nutting would come under intense pressure from the Union and the fans, who have already been showing signs of being fed up with him, would stay away in droves. 

I guess I should ask, what you mean by "doing nothing"?  What do you think BC's plan was, or has been, for this year?

I agree with your statement about rebuilding. With a new Front Office and manager, the fans would be on board with starting over and would likely be in full support.


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Nutting Ventured, Nutting Gained - Gene Collier in the PG on 9/13/2020
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