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Locked Topic 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made (Read 577 times)
fjk090852-7
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6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:18am
 
This month of poor play should result in some roster changes. Williams could use some time at Indy. Polanco needs to go down to get daily playing time, Neverauskas should be DFA’d. It may be time to DFA’d S Rod even though that change may cause some anxiety in the clubhouse. The great beginning of the season has past, and it is time to get the ship running in the right direction.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:49am
 
I'm hopeful that changes will be made when they return to Pittsburgh and can have some organizational discussions. I would send Polanco to AAA and recall Osuna. Give Osuna plenty of time at 1B where he's probably an upgrade both defensively and offensively over Bell. Give Bell plenty of practice in the OF and let him be a 4th OFer and switch-hitting pinch-hitter for as long as Osuna doesn't need to be replaced. Bell can start on Sundays with the JV lineup. Replace Rodriguez with Frazier or Moroff. Williams has pitched very poorly in each of his last 5 starts. His ERA for that period is 8.57. Send him to AAA and replace him with Kingham. Replace Neverauskas with anyone from AAA, AAA or even a popcorn vendor. 

Maybe trade Nova for a legit, established BP arm. Looking over the BP, all except Vazquez have one thing in common. They all make less than $600,000. The MLB minimum is $545,000. So do 4 of the 5 starters.

So I don't actually expect significant changes as much as I would welcome them. This is the low budget team BN and NH wanted.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #2 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:15am
 
Changes need made. 

I don't see Bell being moved to the outfield.  I do think Osuna should get some 1B time.  I don't think the outfield rotation should happen anymore.  I'd put Meadows in LF more too.  Call up Moroff, get rid of Rodriguez. 

I am ok with the pitching staff.  They aren't very good overall, but all very young.  They need to pitch to see what the Pirates have going forward.  They have plenty of guys who can bounce in and out of the rotation.
  
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SCBucco
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #3 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:26am
 
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:15am:
Changes need made. 

I don't see Bell being moved to the outfield.  I do think Osuna should get some 1B time.  I don't think the outfield rotation should happen anymore.  I'd put Meadows in LF more too.  Call up Moroff, get rid of Rodriguez. 

I am ok with the pitching staff.  They aren't very good overall, but all very young.  They need to pitch to see what the Pirates have going forward.  They have plenty of guys who can bounce in and out of the rotation. 


Stop with the continued built in excuses.  Why can almost every other organization develop young pitchers, but Pittsburgh cannot?  The rotation was going to be a problem right from the start and I identified this quickly.  They suck.  There are few options within to change the direction of this. 

There is one potential top two starter in this rotation in JT.  Problem is that is based on potential.  The others are fours and fives at best.  You cannot expect to win with one potential top 2 and four/five 4's and 5's in a rotation.  Maybe our management/ownership should consider getting some pitchers that can be top three types instead of using inconsistent and subpar arms and maintain this crazy notion of this team will compete.  This team was never going to compete long term.

Stop with this "we are young crap"  It gets old.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #4 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:29am
 
SCBucco wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:26am:
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:15am:
Changes need made. 

I don't see Bell being moved to the outfield.  I do think Osuna should get some 1B time.  I don't think the outfield rotation should happen anymore.  I'd put Meadows in LF more too.  Call up Moroff, get rid of Rodriguez. 

I am ok with the pitching staff.  They aren't very good overall, but all very young.  They need to pitch to see what the Pirates have going forward.  They have plenty of guys who can bounce in and out of the rotation. 


Stop with the continued built in excuses.  Why can almost every other organization develop young pitchers, but Pittsburgh cannot?  The rotation was going to be a problem right from the start and I identified this quickly.  They suck.  There are few options within to change the direction of this. 

There is one potential top two starter in this rotation in JT.  Problem is that is based on potential.  The others are fours and fives at best.  You cannot expect to win with one potential top 2 and four/five 4's and 5's in a rotation.  Maybe our management/ownership should consider getting some pitchers that can be top three types instead of using inconsistent and subpar arms and maintain this crazy notion of this team will compete.  This team was never going to compete long term.

Stop with this "we are young crap"  It gets old.


Why don't you stop telling me to stop?

Not excuses.  They are facts.  Know the difference.  Are they not young?  Wait, you don't answer questions...fact is they are young.  Probably the youngest pitching staff in all of baseball (if anyone wants to look it up).  Of course there would be times they struggled.  Didn't take a genius to figure that out!
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #5 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:32am
 
Bobster wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:49am:
I'm hopeful that changes will be made when they return to Pittsburgh and can have some organizational discussions. I would send Polanco to AAA and recall Osuna. Give Osuna plenty of time at 1B where he's probably an upgrade both defensively and offensively over Bell. Give Bell plenty of practice in the OF and let him be a 4th OFer and switch-hitting pinch-hitter for as long as Osuna doesn't need to be replaced. Bell can start on Sundays with the JV lineup. Replace Rodriguez with Frazier or Moroff. Williams has pitched very poorly in each of his last 5 starts. His ERA for that period is 8.57. Send him to AAA and replace him with Kingham. Replace Neverauskas with anyone from AAA, AAA or even a popcorn vendor. 

Maybe trade Nova for a legit, established BP arm. Looking over the BP, all except Vazquez have one thing in common. They all make less than $600,000. The MLB minimum is $545,000. So do 4 of the 5 starters.

So I don't actually expect significant changes as much as I would welcome them. This is the low budget team BN and NH wanted.


A lot of this makes sense.  Then again, this organization is not made up of any sense.  The Lithuanian needs to be shipped back to his home country.  The Pirates love stories like this ... just like the Gift Ngope thing.  I prefer players, not getting the first Lithuanian or South African.

When you build a team like this, where the ownership doesn't want to put any money into it, you have to play solid defense.  This team is inept.  They can't pitch either.  That isn't a good recipe for winning.

If Nova has two more good starts, I deal him quickly.  Maybe someone will give us more than a used milk carton.  The problem is all the players this organization will be willing to move (SRod, Freese, Mercer, Harrison) have little to no value.  They don't bring back anything of note to move the needle.

There aren't any other options for starters, absent Kingham in this organization.  I agree, I move williams down and bring Nick back up.  I don't see that happening though.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #6 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:49am
 
why do players get to Pittsburgh and regress instead of progress?

Cole, Pedro, Polanco, Bell are examples.

Why can a team supposedly being built on pitching and defense have such a bad defense?

This years team should be more than enough proof (and I think it was clear last year) that NH should not be the GM and Hurdle shouldn't be the manager.  One thing that Bob Nutting, Frank C. Neal and Clint have in common is there ability to BS.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #7 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:10am
 
What makes you think they are being built on defense? 

All the new players added from those playoff teams have been known as less fielders (Bell, Moran, Dickerson, Frazier) and Polanco is still here.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:37am
 
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:10am:
What makes you think they are being built on defense? 

All the new players added from those playoff teams have been known as less fielders (Bell, Moran, Dickerson, Frazier) and Polanco is still here.


the whole strategy of shifting is to improve the defense.  Polanco was viewed as a plus defender in the minors.  I don't think the Bucs expected Bell to be this bad at first (IMO he has regressed since last year). 

Frankly, I don't know that there is any plan to build the team on defense and pitching or anything else.  It seems like they don't really know what kind of team they want other than a cheap one.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #9 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:41am
 
Ecbucs wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:37am:
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:10am:
What makes you think they are being built on defense? 

All the new players added from those playoff teams have been known as less fielders (Bell, Moran, Dickerson, Frazier) and Polanco is still here.


the whole strategy of shifting is to improve the defense.  Polanco was viewed as a plus defender in the minors.  I don't think the Bucs expected Bell to be this bad at first (IMO he has regressed since last year). 

Frankly, I don't know that there is any plan to build the team on defense and pitching or anything else.  It seems like they don't really know what kind of team they want other than a cheap one.


Gotcha...I was thinking more of the type of players they brought in or will be going forward with.  The shifting is to help put defenders in the best position.  The Pirates are no longer considered the top team shifters as all teams are doing it just as much. 
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #10 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:50am
 
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:41am:
Ecbucs wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:37am:
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:10am:
What makes you think they are being built on defense? 

All the new players added from those playoff teams have been known as less fielders (Bell, Moran, Dickerson, Frazier) and Polanco is still here.


the whole strategy of shifting is to improve the defense.  Polanco was viewed as a plus defender in the minors.  I don't think the Bucs expected Bell to be this bad at first (IMO he has regressed since last year). 

Frankly, I don't know that there is any plan to build the team on defense and pitching or anything else.  It seems like they don't really know what kind of team they want other than a cheap one.


Gotcha...I was thinking more of the type of players they brought in or will be going forward with.  The shifting is to help put defenders in the best position.  The Pirates are no longer considered the top team shifters as all teams are doing it just as much. 

Can't remember where I heard it last week. May have been ESPN or MLB Network but they said there is a stat for runs saved by shifting and the Pirates are among the worst now.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #11 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 12:00pm
 
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:15am:
Changes need made. 

I don't see Bell being moved to the outfield.  I do think Osuna should get some 1B time.  I don't think the outfield rotation should happen anymore.  I'd put Meadows in LF more too.  Call up Moroff, get rid of Rodriguez. 

I am ok with the pitching staff.  They aren't very good overall, but all very young.  They need to pitch to see what the Pirates have going forward.  They have plenty of guys who can bounce in and out of the rotation. 

Why would you put Meadows in LF? Dickerson seems ok at covering the ground, and his arm is nowhere near strong enough to play RF.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #12 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 12:09pm
 
notes34 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Dogknot3 wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:15am:
Changes need made. 

I don't see Bell being moved to the outfield.  I do think Osuna should get some 1B time.  I don't think the outfield rotation should happen anymore.  I'd put Meadows in LF more too.  Call up Moroff, get rid of Rodriguez. 

I am ok with the pitching staff.  They aren't very good overall, but all very young.  They need to pitch to see what the Pirates have going forward.  They have plenty of guys who can bounce in and out of the rotation. 

Why would you put Meadows in LF? Dickerson seems ok at covering the ground, and his arm is nowhere near strong enough to play RF.


I think there are more plays at 2B and the plate from LF than there is in preventing guys from going first to third.  I felt Marte kept many guys at 1B instead of trying for a double.   

If Marte isn't going to move back to CF, I would put the better arm in LF with the size of PNC Park.  That isn't a knock on Dickerson, he has been very good out there.  Meadows would be better in my opinion with his arm and speed.  I actually would put Meadows in CF and Marte in LF going forward, but I don't see that happening.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #13 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 12:13pm
 
I don't understand the rotation narrative.  Yes, we need more top end talent.

The numbers their putting up and defense behind them don't back up the "rotation sucks" narrative.   The bullpen sucks, no doubt.  The defense is terrible, no doubt. 

I have problems with the position players we're running out there and the bullpen much more than the starters.

Williams has always been the guy that didn't belong and was pitching way over his periphrials and stuff.   He should be optioned and Kingham recalled.
  
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Re: 6 wins and 18 Losses Changes Need To Be Made
Reply #14 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 12:16pm
 
Boy howdy, would I ever like to see changes. Of course my biggest wish would be a change of ownership, but we all know that's as imminently likely as cockroach extinction.

Clint needs to go for the near countless reasons cited on this board regarding personnel management. He's delusional and his shelf life has expired.

As others have mentioned I'd like to see Bell and Polanco given remedial stints at AAA. Let Osuna have a few weeks of playing first base and see what he can do. His defense can't be worse than Bell's, and his hitting just might play.

I'd try to move Freese and Nova for a return of a couple of experienced and capable bullpen arms. I would even use Polanco as trade bait if the return was right. If you can get something for SRod take it. If not, release him and bring up one of our infield prospects from Indy.

The only thing I wouldn't mess with is our young starting staff. At age 25-26 I don't see any reason to call any of them a failure. In fact The Athletic's Enos Sarris rated our young starters in the top 151 MLB starters projected for the rest of the season with these rankings:

#24 Jameson Taillon
#57 Joe Musgrove
#71 Nick Kingham
#102 Chad Kuhl
#117 Trevor Williams

Those rankings correspond to a respectable if not particularly impressive rotation with Taillon being a low #1, Musgrove a low #2, Kingham a high #3, Kuhl a high #4 and Williams a low #4.  The addition of an experienced true top of the rotation arm would make this young staff look really good with a significant chance for improvement with maturation of the young arms.




  

"In baseball, you don't know nothing."-  Yogi Berra
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