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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two years later ... (Read 3164 times)
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #75 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 12:16pm
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Bobster wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 9:27am:
After consecutive 93-69 division-winning seasons, the Red Sox fired mgr John Farrell for not advancing beyond the ALDS. After seasons of 78-83 (25 GB) and 75-87 (17 GB) the Pirates rewarded mgr Hurdle with a 4-year extension. The bar is set a little lower with Nutting.

NH is doing well with the numbers that are important to NUTJOB.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #76 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 12:42pm
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Ecbucs wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 12:12pm:
Bobster wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 9:27am:
After consecutive 93-69 division-winning seasons, the Red Sox fired mgr John Farrell for not advancing beyond the ALDS. After seasons of 78-83 (25 GB) and 75-87 (17 GB) the Pirates rewarded mgr Hurdle with a 4-year extension. The bar is set a little lower with Nutting.



What prospect should the Red Sox send the Pirates for Clint? 


That's how the Red Sox got Farrell.  They traded Mike Aviles for him and Dave Carpenter.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #77 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 3:26pm
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"Because you can't fire the players!"
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #78 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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Isn't the real question (from at least the fans perspective) is what prospects should the Pirates send the Red Sox to take Hurdle off of our hands? 

While the 2017 season was very disappointing, the decision to offer Clint a 4 year extension was the epitome of rubbing salt in an open wound.  Clint clearly seemed to be leading the team in going through the motions for much of the season.  I have no idea who would be better than him at this point, but I sure was hoping for a change.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #79 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 7:07pm
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MaineBucs wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
Isn't the real question (from at least the fans perspective) is what prospects should the Pirates send the Red Sox to take Hurdle off of our hands? 

While the 2017 season was very disappointing, the decision to offer Clint a 4 year extension was the epitome of rubbing salt in an open wound.  Clint clearly seemed to be leading the team in going through the motions for much of the season.  I have no idea who would be better than him at this point, but I sure was hoping for a change.


I would give this a couple plusses if the website allowed it.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #80 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:11am
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MaineBucs wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
Isn't the real question (from at least the fans perspective) is what prospects should the Pirates send the Red Sox to take Hurdle off of our hands? 

While the 2017 season was very disappointing, the decision to offer Clint a 4 year extension was the epitome of rubbing salt in an open wound.  Clint clearly seemed to be leading the team in going through the motions for much of the season.  I have no idea who would be better than him at this point, but I sure was hoping for a change.


This gives me hope that an entire rebuild is not going to happen.  I don't want that.  I think adding a few players can get the Pirates back to the Playoffs.  A new manager for a small market might mean a total rebuild. 

Watching the Playoffs and how other managers manage, I am not sure if there is someone significantly better.  Its like managers don't have any more ideas.  Boston fired their manager and rumor of Yankees firing theirs if they lost.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #81 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:42am
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Frankly, I think changing managers in baseball makes little difference and thinking otherwise is foolish.  I'm sure there is some difference on the margins but for the most part it's scapegoating.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #82 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:59am
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SammyKhalifa wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:42am:
Frankly, I think changing managers in baseball makes little difference and thinking otherwise is foolish.  I'm sure there is some difference on the margins but for the most part it's scapegoating.


I believe in managing, but they all seem to do the same foolish things.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #83 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:11am
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If they all do it maybe there's a reason
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #84 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:03am
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Yeah, but there is so much analysis and statistics that say they shouldn't do certain things.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #85 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:40am
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I agree that most managers do the same things and therefore don't make a lot of difference. And a team like the Pirates that wants to be competitive with a consistently inexpensive roster needs an exceptional manager rather than an ordinary one. I believe Hurdle was an ordinary manager prior to this year and became below average with his emphasis on rest, constantly changing lineups and waiting too long to replace an ineffective Watson as closer. He, like others, manages by formula.

Formula managing is why most managers seem very much alike. It protects them from criticism because people just accept that they managed correctly. Fans and media accept that an effective pitcher should be replaced merely because he reached the magic 100 pitch count. They accept that an effective reliever should be replaced because the next inning is a different reliever's inning to pitch. If a manager strays from the formula and it fails, he's criticized. If he sticks to the formula and it fails, they say he managed correctly. 

Managers copy other managers. Not always for the best. The closer concept was initiated by Tony LaRussa when he had a strong bullpen headed by a nearly unhittable Dennis Eckersley. He decided that he had the pen to hold the other team in check and then shut them down in the 9th with Eckersley. It worked so every other team adopted the same strategy. But some didn't (and don't) have a strong enough pen to get to the 9th unscathed or a strong enough closer to be unhittable in the 9th. And it doesn't mean the previous strategy of using your best reliever to get out of jams instead of holding him for the 9th to pick up a save stat was wrong. It worked well for decades and some studies now indicate it is a better use of the bullpen than the accepted closer concept. The point is, what works for one team doesn't always work for others. But because managers accept formulas and run with them, we see the same types of decisions made from manager to manager even if it doesn't benefit that team.   
« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2017 at 12:39pm by Bobster »  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #86 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:19am
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Dogknot3 wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:11am:
MaineBucs wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
Isn't the real question (from at least the fans perspective) is what prospects should the Pirates send the Red Sox to take Hurdle off of our hands? 

While the 2017 season was very disappointing, the decision to offer Clint a 4 year extension was the epitome of rubbing salt in an open wound.  Clint clearly seemed to be leading the team in going through the motions for much of the season.  I have no idea who would be better than him at this point, but I sure was hoping for a change.


This gives me hope that an entire rebuild is not going to happen.  I don't want that.  I think adding a few players can get the Pirates back to the Playoffs.  A new manager for a small market might mean a total rebuild. 

Watching the Playoffs and how other managers manage, I am not sure if there is someone significantly better.  Its like managers don't have any more ideas.  Boston fired their manager and rumor of Yankees firing theirs if they lost.


I still say to blow the whole thing up. Maybe I'm just salty from this season. I don't know...I haven't watched a single baseball game in about two months, even being an MLB.tv subscriber. But, as I look out at the landscape around MLB, I see the Dodgers having an endless money stream, the Cubs being young, and also having lots of resources, the Brewers being an up and coming team, the Cards being the Cards. And over in the other league, the Yankees are winning like a small-market team, with their best player being a rookie, plus having a top-three farm system, and also endless money. The Astros are young. I look at MLB and I don't see how the Pirates can compete. That's disheartening. Blow it up and try again in five years. Maybe things will have shifted by then.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #87 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:33am
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IABucFan wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:19am:
Dogknot3 wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 8:11am:
MaineBucs wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
Isn't the real question (from at least the fans perspective) is what prospects should the Pirates send the Red Sox to take Hurdle off of our hands? 

While the 2017 season was very disappointing, the decision to offer Clint a 4 year extension was the epitome of rubbing salt in an open wound.  Clint clearly seemed to be leading the team in going through the motions for much of the season.  I have no idea who would be better than him at this point, but I sure was hoping for a change.


This gives me hope that an entire rebuild is not going to happen.  I don't want that.  I think adding a few players can get the Pirates back to the Playoffs.  A new manager for a small market might mean a total rebuild. 

Watching the Playoffs and how other managers manage, I am not sure if there is someone significantly better.  Its like managers don't have any more ideas.  Boston fired their manager and rumor of Yankees firing theirs if they lost.


I still say to blow the whole thing up. Maybe I'm just salty from this season. I don't know...I haven't watched a single baseball game in about two months, even being an MLB.tv subscriber. But, as I look out at the landscape around MLB, I see the Dodgers having an endless money stream, the Cubs being young, and also having lots of resources, the Brewers being an up and coming team, the Cards being the Cards. And over in the other league, the Yankees are winning like a small-market team, with their best player being a rookie, plus having a top-three farm system, and also endless money. The Astros are young. I look at MLB and I don't see how the Pirates can compete. That's disheartening. Blow it up and try again in five years. Maybe things will have shifted by then.


The best team in the AL (2nd overall in MLB) and the second best team in the NL (4th) are out of the playoffs.  Anyone can compete once you get to the Playoffs.  92 win teams and 91 win teams are still alive in the playoffs.  The Pirates have enough talent to get back to that 90 win plateau in my opinion. 
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #88 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:37am
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Bobster wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:40am:
I agree that most managers do the same things and therefore don't make a lot of difference. And a team like the Pirates that wants to be competitive with a consistently inexpensive roster needs an exceptional manager rather than an ordinary one. I believe Hurdle was an ordinary manager prior to this year and became below average with his emphasis on rest, constantly changing lineups and waiting too long to replace an ineffective Watson as closer. He, like others, manages by formula.

Formula managing is why most managers seem very much alike. It protects them from criticism because people just accept that they managed correctly. Fans and media accept that an effective pitcher should be replaced merely because he reached the magic 100 pitch count. They accept that an effective reliever should be replaced because the next inning is a different reliever's inning to pitch. If a manager strays from the formula and it fails, he's criticized. If he sticks to the formula and it fails, they say he managed correctly. 

Managers copy other managers. Not always for the best. The closer concept was initiated by Tony LaRussa when he had a strong bullpen headed by a nearly unhittable Dennis Eckersley. He decided that he had the pen to hold the other team in check and then shut them down in the 9th with Eckersley. It worked so every other team adopted the same strategy. But some didn't (and don't) have a strong enough pen to get to the 9th unscathed or a strong enough closer to be untittable in the 9th. And it doesn't mean the previous strategy of using your best reliever to get out of jams instead of holding him for the 9th to pick up a save stat was wrong. It worked well for decades and some studies now indicate it is a better use of the bullpen than the accepted closer concept. The point is, what works for one team doesn't always work for others. But because managers accept formulas and run with them, we see the same types of decisions made from manager to manager even if it doesn't benefit that team.   


I agree with most of this.  A lot of copy cat.  But you do need the talent to do certain things.  I also feel when you lose, more is pointed out.  I think a problem is that the manager has to answer questions to the media after every single game.  If they did that once a week and weren't questioned so much, maybe they would manage differently.  With that said, they shouldn't worry what the media thinks, but we know how every word gets twisted or remembered.
  
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Re: Two years later ...
Reply #89 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 12:42pm
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Dogknot3 wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:37am:
Bobster wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:40am:
I agree that most managers do the same things and therefore don't make a lot of difference. And a team like the Pirates that wants to be competitive with a consistently inexpensive roster needs an exceptional manager rather than an ordinary one. I believe Hurdle was an ordinary manager prior to this year and became below average with his emphasis on rest, constantly changing lineups and waiting too long to replace an ineffective Watson as closer. He, like others, manages by formula.

Formula managing is why most managers seem very much alike. It protects them from criticism because people just accept that they managed correctly. Fans and media accept that an effective pitcher should be replaced merely because he reached the magic 100 pitch count. They accept that an effective reliever should be replaced because the next inning is a different reliever's inning to pitch. If a manager strays from the formula and it fails, he's criticized. If he sticks to the formula and it fails, they say he managed correctly. 

Managers copy other managers. Not always for the best. The closer concept was initiated by Tony LaRussa when he had a strong bullpen headed by a nearly unhittable Dennis Eckersley. He decided that he had the pen to hold the other team in check and then shut them down in the 9th with Eckersley. It worked so every other team adopted the same strategy. But some didn't (and don't) have a strong enough pen to get to the 9th unscathed or a strong enough closer to be unhittable in the 9th. And it doesn't mean the previous strategy of using your best reliever to get out of jams instead of holding him for the 9th to pick up a save stat was wrong. It worked well for decades and some studies now indicate it is a better use of the bullpen than the accepted closer concept. The point is, what works for one team doesn't always work for others. But because managers accept formulas and run with them, we see the same types of decisions made from manager to manager even if it doesn't benefit that team.   


I agree with most of this.  A lot of copy cat.  But you do need the talent to do certain things.  I also feel when you lose, more is pointed out.  I think a problem is that the manager has to answer questions to the media after every single game.  If they did that once a week and weren't questioned so much, maybe they would manage differently.  With that said, they shouldn't worry what the media thinks, but we know how every word gets twisted or remembered.

Good point about the frequent exposure to media. Managers seem to stick to the accepted formulas to avoid blame as much as possible when things go wrong and there's always someone from the media to ask them about it. 
  
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